Lessons learned - Page 3

Lessons learned

This is a discussion on Lessons learned within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We have friends who are a married couple and both are retired cops from a big city. Neither ever shot their gun on duty except ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 54
Like Tree166Likes

Thread: Lessons learned

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Oregon
    Posts
    14,240
    We have friends who are a married couple and both are retired cops from a big city. Neither ever shot their gun on duty except for training and qualifications. Neither of them own a gun today.
    AzQkr and TSKnight like this.
    Second Amendment: The difference between politicians and rulers.
    US Navy - US Army, Retired
    NRA Benefactor Life Member

  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,703
    Quote Originally Posted by oldbadger View Post
    As a physician, I was always grateful that I did not have to have all the diseases, disorders and injuries that I treated.
    As a patient, I seek out doctors who have experience dealing with the issues that I am coming to them for, not someone who has done a lot of reading on webmd. Doctors go to med school and have a 4 year residency. I’m certainly not going to seek out a surgeon who has never performed surgery before.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    OK, I'd like to respectfully challenge that. I know some of these are over the top, and I am not doing that to be disrespectful. But the "experience beats skill" argument does lead to some interesting questions that need to be considered:
    • Here's the big question: If you have that experience, to what extent can you transfer to students? Is a student who has been trained by an experienced gunfighter really any better prepared than a student trained by a someone with no gunfighting experience? Is that "in the moment, killer instinct" transferable?
    • Is there not a danger that having a trainer who has been in a particular kind of gunfight, say gunfights resulting from traffic stops, might only develop proficiency in students for that kind of gunfight?
    • Is the grandmother down the street who successfully shot an intruder more qualified to teach a defensive shooting course than say, someone like Grant Cunningham?
    • If gun trainers who have been in gunfights think this is important, why don't they put their body count on the landing page of their website? Why aren't their articles like, "The ten instructors who have been in the most gunfights?" Shouldn't this site have a stat in our profiles: "Join Date...Location....Posts...Number of gunfights? Are we who are looking for training and advice supposed to just go on rumor?
    • How are we supposed to verify an instructor's claim that he has been in X gunfights? Just because he said so? Should he provide copies of police reports? I think there must be some "stolen valor" out there.
    • How many instructors can claim this? I would say it would narrow the number or trainers down to so few trainers that there would hardly be enough training available for people who wanted it. We might as well not go for training unless we can find an experienced gunfighter.
    • Should instructors be rated for some combination of: Number of gunfights? Number of kills? Number of bad guys? Some complexity factor, like range, number of shots fired, criminal records of the bad guys? Should they lose points if they got shot in the process?
    • How does police shooting experience stack up vs. military experience, vs. civilian expedience?
    • What about people who have been in a lot of gunfights, but have no teaching ability, who can't even organize a class? Are they still better instructors than someone with no experience who can do those things?
    • Here's an off the wall thought: Just like the security industry sometimes recruits former criminals to teach law enforcement personnel, why don't we recruit former hitmen from the Mafia and MS-13 to teach shooting classes? I mean, they all have experience and it would give them employment to rehabilitate them. Win-win! Based on the experience criteria, they should be top notch!
    I agree to an extent. There are plenty of people in this world who can suck at their job for 30+ years but brag about how long they have done the work and how experienced they are.

    There are an infinite number of situations that can be encountered and there is no person who will experience all of them. However, I think if someone is going to teach something, they should have experience in what they are teaching, as opposed to just regurgitating something that they saw elsewhere, or worse, something that was made up out of thin air. Just my opinion of course.
    G-man*, Wavygravy, jmf552 and 1 others like this.
    We get the government we deserve.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    6,356
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    If you have military combat experience, a DD-214 should reflect that, and all other rewards. If you were LE, then you would have credentials whether active or retired, and pretty much every officer will break leather many times and be faced with a potential deadly force situation, even if they have only been on the job a short while.
    The officer does not have to fire the gun in order to benefit from what the situation teaches.

    These are just a couple I can think of.
    OK, that's a start. Have you ever actually asked to see a trainer's DD-214 before taking training from them? And what do you look for? My DD-214 says that I am an expert rifle and pistol shot and that I served in an overseas campaign. As the saying goes, "Just because your cat had kittens in the oven, that doesn't make 'em biscuits." You can even have combat experience that does not include having fired a small arm, much less a handgun. That is not the kind of experience I'm looking for.

    And as for cops, as someone mentioned, most cops do whole careers and never fire their weapons. Are you saying just being in situations where they unholstered their gun makes them a better trainer? And have you ever checked their references with the departments they say they were with?

    BTW, I have a brother who legitimately has been a Coast Guard boarding crew member, a deputy sheriff and a chief of police, although, he never fired a shot, his boarding crew duties were unarmed, on Lake Michigan, his sheriff duties were courtroom security and he was "chief" in a tiny town, where being chief meant he was the only paid police officer. I will not go to the range with him because he blows off the safety rules all the time. Not to mention, I can outshoot him any day of the week.
    LimaCharlie and Mike1956 like this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,625
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    If you have military combat experience, a DD-214 should reflect that, and all other rewards. If you were LE, then you would have credentials whether active or retired, and pretty much every officer will break leather many times and be faced with a potential deadly force situation, even if they have only been on the job a short while.
    The officer does not have to fire the gun in order to benefit from what the situation teaches.

    These are just a couple I can think of.
    I suppose I fall in that last category. I didn't have a gun, but actually had some idjits try to shoot me - on several different occasions. Not having a gun to respond to such stupidity, the only lesson I can offer, beyond observation of effective means of cover, is to, "Run like..well....FAST!"

    I faced a murderer with a bloody butcher knife because patrol officers didn't do a thorough job clearing the house. Once again, the lesson is simple, "Run like...well...VERY FAST!" Actually, in this case, I couldn't do much, as the victim's little children were in the room with me. I talked the guy into dropping the knife instead of carving me up like a Christmas Turkey.
    G-man*, TSKnight and Secret Spuk like this.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    6,356
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    As a patient, I seek out doctors who have experience dealing with the issues that I am coming to them for, not someone who has done a lot of reading on webmd. Doctors go to med school and have a 4 year residency. I’m certainly not going to seek out a surgeon who has never performed surgery before.

    I agree to an extent. There are plenty of people in this world who can suck at their job for 30+ years but brag about how long they have done the work and how experienced they are.

    There are an infinite number of situations that can be encountered and there is no person who will experience all of them. However, I think if someone is going to teach something, they should have experience in what they are teaching, as opposed to just regurgitating something that they saw elsewhere, or worse, something that was made up out of thin air. Just my opinion of course.
    Thanks for a great reply. It gets me to thinking: What AM I training for? To be in a gunfight? I don't actually want to be in gunfight! The military are supposed to get in gunfights, if they are in small arms combat positions. Cops need to be ready for gunfights, but most of them are supposed to avoid shooting if they can. If it were possible, I'd like someone to train me how to do go about my business and never get in fight of any kind. That would be success for me.

    An example is the martial arts instructor I had for the longest time, about 14 years. He got in a lot of fights growing up "in the hood" of St. Louis and saw combat in Vietnam, so he knew all about violence. He was the most proficient martial artist I ever met. But the the thing that impressed me the most about him is how he made his fortune as a bail bondsman "in the hood" writing bonds on some vicious criminals.

    He is really mild mannered and soft spoken, only about 5"6', and 150 pounds. He never lost a bail bond and he never had to fight a bail jumper. Bondsmen could not be armed, BTW. If they jumped, he would find them, and when he did, they would just know that had to go peaceably. He also never got mugged living in the one of the most dangerous blocks in the city. He just had that "presence." That is what I want to learn. I hope I picked up a little of that from him.
    OldChap, Havok, Hoganbeg and 1 others like this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  7. #36
    New Member Array rlggray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    670
    Back when I was a lieutenant with my fire department, I was also an instructor for the fire academy at the local community college. They gave me the curriculum they wanted me to teach. I felt really good about teaching these students this curriculum because I had actual experience in everything I was teaching.
    I knew what I was teaching was right because I did it every day and it worked.

    But although I had been to many structure fires, automobile accidents, search and rescues, you name it, in no way did I consider myself to be an expert, because every situation is different.
    OldChap, AzQkr, G-man* and 3 others like this.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    17,243
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    OK, that's a start. Have you ever actually asked to see a trainer's DD-214 before taking training from them? And what do you look for? My DD-214 says that I am an expert rifle and pistol shot and that I served in an overseas campaign. As the saying goes, "Just because your cat had kittens in the oven, that doesn't make 'em biscuits." You can even have combat experience that does not include having fired a small arm, much less a handgun. That is not the kind of experience I'm looking for.

    And as for cops, as someone mentioned, most cops do whole careers and never fire their weapons. Are you saying just being in situations where they unholstered their gun makes them a better trainer? And have you ever checked their references with the departments they say they were with?

    BTW, I have a brother who legitimately has been a Coast Guard boarding crew member, a deputy sheriff and a chief of police, although, 1) He never fired a shot, his boarding crew duties were unarmed, on Lake Michigan, his sheriff duties were courtroom security and he was "chief" in a tiny town, where being chief meant he was the only paid police officer. I will not go to the range with him because he blows off the safety rules all the time. Not to mention, I can outshoot him any day of the week.
    All of my training has been job provided. However, if, I were concerned enough about training at this stage in my life to be serious about it, I would certainly want to have verifiable info that he was reputable in what he was professing, because how could you trust the training if he wasn’t?

    I certainly do believe that experiencing the heat of the moment as an officer over and over on the job is a benefit that cannot be replicated in any other way, and has a direct and measurable impact on one’s approach to providing a curriculum and a sound philosophy.
    OldChap and Havok like this.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
    -Jeff Cooper

    “ Looking around doesn’t cost you anything; and it’s a healthy habit”
    -Joe Foss

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,625
    @jmf552 and @rlggray Hit it squarely on the head. (Posts #35 and #36) Attitude makes all the difference in the world.
    AzQkr, G-man* and TSKnight like this.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    6,356
    Quote Originally Posted by rlggray View Post
    Back when I was a lieutenant with my fire department, I was also an instructor for the fire academy at the local community college. They gave me the curriculum they wanted me to teach. I felt really good about teaching these students this curriculum because I had actual experience in everything I was teaching.
    I knew what I was teaching was right because I did it every day and it worked.

    But although I had been to many structure fires, automobile accidents, search and rescues, you name it, in no way did I consider myself to be an expert, because every situation is different.
    Great example. I went through shipboard fire fighting school. There, you have to learn to fight a fire you were in the middle of, couldn't retreat from and might not get much backup for. And the training was very tough and realistic. There was actual fire in a ship structure built on land. But today, if I encountered a house fire that I couldn't put out quickly with my little fire extinguisher, I would just get out and call the fire department, the professionals.
    OldChap likes this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    The Florida Twilight Zone
    Posts
    31,756
    Yogi Berra comes to mind: Deja Vu all over again.

    During my tech school in the Air force, I had two types of instructors: those who had come from the field, and those who had been selected for instructors straight out of tech school.

    The ones right out of tech school could answer technical questions but had no clue about answering any practical questions that might arise from actual aircraft faults.

    Those instructors who had actually worked on aircraft were much more knowledgeable and explained issues far more in depth.

    There is a difference that goes beyond mere technical knowledge.
    OldChap, Havok, G-man* and 1 others like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Scouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Orlando Florida
    Posts
    1,304
    I had worked in Armed Security, not for long. Here in Florida. I found the teaching I had to take to pass the course, to obtain the License, not much. In fact, watching Cop movies (which we not going to be) not any use at all.

    Now that was here in Florida. I had already spent 20 years, on the Board of IALEFI then. And ran my own School in Canada for 25 years, teach the program, that was attested to be sufficient by the Staff Sgt. who ran the OPP license group. The only other course I had taken, was mandated by Glock GA, for any of their employees, was given by Peter Tarly, who at the time, was the Glock Instructor. Well done. Nice Chap.
    I was employed by Glock for 2 years. Sold 6000 Glock .40 Cal to them. Against my advice, I reckoned 9mm. Me and the FBI! I am ducking now!

    In order to teach the program to Security Officers, in Canada. I studied info on attacks on people in that trade, very little information. The only people teaching that course at the time were Police Firearms Instructors. I took a look, no holsters! To risky! Start with .22 LR S&W revolvers. All shot from the bench in an indoor range. I decided to teach all holster use, walking, turning, back to the targets, turn as you drew, all shots fired, double taps. The test was a twenty round one, 90% was the minimum score accepted, two misses only allowed, done twice, best score counted. One reshoot allowed.
    Draw and fire two rounds, lower weapon, I would sometimes call for FIRE when they were at 45 degrees.

    Six rounds from 15M - 12 rounds from 7M last two, loaded by hand with Revolvers, headshots, whilst walking forward about 6 ft! Metro Police chief Instructor said if one of my Students took a headshot, the Employee would be charged with first-degree murder, me for teaching it! I taught headshots from 1980, Metro from 2004!

    Class size 8, two lines of 4 students. Narrow bunker type range. When we came into the Club Room for a break, guns left in Holsters LOADED! Any visitors were appaled at this.

    My rational, this is how they were going to work. I taught the Punch Draw, Revolvers or Glocks.

    My version of this, draw the pistol, point at the target from chest height. Punch at target, pressing the trigger on the end, whilst still moving forward. Shots break as the pistol stops moving. Hence the punch draw. No stop and aim, I never found a documented incident of gunplay past 5 yards. In Security.

    Dry fire was the most important part of the Course, in my estimation. If 100% was achieved (quite a few were!) I gave out a wee pin. Gunfights me? No. Ordinary fights, with and without weapons! Lots.
    Locations of those, my Dads Pub, the street, whilst working, and not! Me hurt, twice stabbed. All UK.

    Only been in one fight in the USA I was 69YOA. Carrying a Glock 19, folding Benchmade, sharp like a razor. No weapons employed. You guessed it, to do with my Wife! She sure gets me in trouble.
    OldChap and TSKnight like this.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    6,356
    I'll tell you what I look for in a shooting instructor. I'll try a short course based on the title, the description and any student reviews I can find online. At the end of that short course, if I have seen my skills improve, I feel more confident and the course was somewhat enjoyable or at least tolerable, I will seek that trainer, or that training organization, out for more training. Only that. I don't care if the guy has been a SEAL, a CIA operative and a police SWAT team member. In fact, I have seen guys like that who were blowhards. If I'm not getting anything out of the training, it doesn't matter how good he may be in a gunfight he might get in, his courses are not for me because he is not making me any better. One of the best courses I took was from a guy who was in the IT industry in real life, but he had been a gun trainer for years.
    AzQkr and TSKnight like this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  14. #43
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    19,639
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I'll tell you what I look for in a shooting instructor. I'll try a short course based on the title, the description and any student reviews I can find online. At the end of that short course, if I have seen my skills improve, I feel more confident and the course was somewhat enjoyable or at least tolerable, I will seek that trainer, or that training organization, out for more training. Only that. I don't care if the guy has been a SEAL, a CIA operative and a police SWAT team member. In fact, I have seen guys like that who were blowhards. If I'm not getting anything out of the training, it doesn't matter how good he may be in a gunfight he might get in, his courses are not for me because he is not making me any better. One of the best courses I took was from a guy who was in the IT industry in real life, but he had been a gun trainer for years.
    I always sought those considered emertus's in their respective SD skills development [ whether that be H2h/knife/pistols or rifles ], mostly by their peers but also from AAR's from students at times. Some had a lot of street experience/fights to their name, others had some, very few of them had no real world experience in their respective fields.

    The "nuggets" [ as the OP put it ] imparted by these real world BTDT people were worth every penny IMO. What I've tried to become is well rounded, being exposed to as many forms of SD training by a couple of instructors in each discipline as possible. One gets a sense of what's valuable to them in doing so, whats out there for the taking, and along the way picks up numerous skills that add value to ones overall SD in general.

    So,
    two edged weapons instructors in different disciplines/principles
    4-5 pistol instructors in different disciplines/principles
    2 h2h instructors with different doctrines/principles
    2 counter sniper instructors, with nearly identical disciplines/principles

    I got something out of each course, most of the time many useful nuggets in each course.
    jmf552 and TSKnight like this.

  15. #44
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion county, Ohio
    Posts
    32,748
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    “Instructors” can basically steal money from people when they demonstrate something and their audience is too inexperienced to know what they are looking at. Not saying that’s always the case, but it is sometimes.
    No argument there. The guy who taught the CHL certification course I took immediately comes to mind. Come to think of it, tho, he didn't actually demo anything.
    Havok and G-man* like this.
    "Stop being dangerous, and you become edible." William Aprill

    "Slaves, enjoy your freedom." Chuck Klosterman

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Cornhusker95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    2,285
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    So how do you vett gunfighting experience? The instructor’s claims? How easy would it be to claim experience, but not have it? What if they are the kind of person who actually is experienced, but doesn’t like to talk about it, which BTW, I respect. We have people on this site who claim to have experience. I give them the benefit of the doubt for forum discussions, but if you are considering taking training from them, how do you verify that?
    There are all kinds of ways to check credentials this day and age....They have certificates which some like to throw around.
    What have they done all their life....Police training/Military....Referrals...Who has been there to that class being offered?
    How do they rate the experience...Was it cash well spent?....Would you recommend them?....Public records can be a wonderful thing also.
    How many times was this person placed on administrative leave for using his or her gun on the job.....How many years has this person been doing it.
    And no the person does not have to carry a gun as part of their job to be qualified....But if i am laying down good $$$$ i am vetting a person.
    When it comes to $$$$ we vett all kinds goods and services before we spend it....No different here....None of this fool proof but a better option imo
    than just taking someones word for it alone.
    AzQkr and TSKnight like this.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •