Lessons learned - Page 4

Lessons learned

This is a discussion on Lessons learned within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AzQkr I always sought those considered emertus's in their respective SD skills development [ whether that be H2h/knife/pistols or rifles ], mostly ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I always sought those considered emertus's in their respective SD skills development [ whether that be H2h/knife/pistols or rifles ], mostly by their peers but also from AAR's from students at times. Some had a lot of street experience/fights to their name, others had some, very few of them had no real world experience in their respective fields.

    The "nuggets" [ as the OP put it ] imparted by these real world BTDT people were worth every penny IMO. What I've tried to become is well rounded, being exposed to as many forms of SD training by a couple of instructors in each discipline as possible. One gets a sense of what's valuable to them in doing so, whats out there for the taking, and along the way picks up numerous skills that add value to ones overall SD in general.

    So,
    two edged weapons instructors in different disciplines/principles
    4-5 pistol instructors in different disciplines/principles
    2 h2h instructors with different doctrines/principles
    2 counter sniper instructors, with nearly identical disciplines/principles

    I got something out of each course, most of the time many useful nuggets in each course.
    I think that is a really great approach if you have the time, money and inclination. And since you are in the training business, it is really commendable that you do ongoing advanced training yourself. I know that some trainers get some basic trainer quals and might never take another class as a student. So that's a thought too. I guess I would like to know what training a prospective trainer has taken as a student in the last year. That shows me something.

    I think a real challenge, though, is we know most people don't take any training past their permit requirements. So if someone can be induced into taking one course past permit requirements, they are not only way above average, but they are then more likely to seek out even more training. It has to be perplexing for people like that, because they don't even know what they should want in training. I don't want to get into bashing here, but there was a time I thought, on faith, that an NRA trainer certification was a gold standard. That led to some good training but also some really bad training. There just doesn't seem to be a gold standard anymore. Gunsite Ranch maybe? I don't know.
    AzQkr, Mike1956, TSKnight and 1 others like this.
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  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    I've had a fair amount of SD training over the years. I in no way consider just qualified to teach SD firearms. I am a safety instructor. I have in the past taught Minnesota's Carry Class which is really only a glorified safety class with some legal stuff thrown in.
    The most valuable instructors I've had were informal mentors, 2 WWII vets and a DEA agent, who shared their knowledge and experience with me.
    Some of the least useful training has been in formal class settings.

    One never saw combat. He spent his entire term of service teaching "The art of the rifle" to raw recruits. Obviously the Army saw that he had an ability to impart knowledge and put him in a place to capitalize on that ability.

    The other served in China and Burma and helped me to understand and accept my capacity for violence in a society that is very unaccepting of violence.I

    The DEA agent helped me adapt to the reality of not being physically capable and to capitalize on the abilities that I still possessed.

    As the verifiable experience?
    I've had a few SD encounters, one with shots fired, and only two that were reported to LE for various reasons.
    Mike1956, AzQkr and PhaedrusIV like this.
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  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    Just an opinion.

    I've been through a number of required CCW classes and taught a few as an NRA instructor.
    None have really done anything to truly prepare me for an SD encounter.
    About all they really are is a way to prove that an individual knows which end the bullet comes out of. That they are able to pull a trigger and hit the broad side of a barn. That they have at least been exposed to some basic legal information about the use of force and firearms.
    Democracy:
    Two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
    Freedom:
    A well armed lamb contesting the vote.

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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirling XD View Post
    "We must learn from the mistakes (experience) of others because we won't live long enough to make all those mistakes ourselves."

    If we expect our instructors to teach from their experience, how many gunfights would we expect them to have been involved in? 2, 10, 100? The odds of surviving gunfights go down as the numbers go up. Would we want them to teach based on their experience alone? That could be a pretty narrow point of view. While experience would be a plus, I would rather learn from someone that teaches from the wisdom gained by studying thousands of gunfights as well as the analysis that resulted from those gunfights. I just can't expect a self defense instructor to experienced thousands of gunfights.
    Not all that true, Practice does make perfect. In fighting for your life, the more you must do it, the better you get at it.
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  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    Not all that true, Practice does make perfect. In fighting for your life, the more you must do it, the better you get at it.
    We see that in FoF all the time as well. Lessons learned in each event/scenario, through various tactical mistakes, are rarely repeated. The students get better at decision making and responding to various stimuli.

    It would be no different when incoming is lead, not plastic pellets.
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    LOL Anyone want to vet me? Vetting an instructor is probably impossible. I've known guys who have engaged in two or three shooting incident. Obvious choice for an instructor right? Except all his shootings was shaky with the last one being why he's no longer working as a policeman. A gun shop I frequented hired a new clerk/coach to teach gun safety, and help match the customer with the gun. Not so much an instructor, but with equal responsibility. So I meet the new guy who speaks with serious authority. But I know this guy from somewhere. So were all having a fun time conversation talking about guns and shooting. While it seemed like a friendly conversation I'm actually interrogating him. A retired deputy catches my eye and give me a slight nod. Anyway the guys is talking about all the armed security and body guard work he's done. But i know this guy from somewhere. As he's running his mouth he mentions how he used to own a particular store. That clicked. While working in narcotics I caught several kites ( investigations ) on him and his store. I called him on it in detail. He went home that night and never came back.

    OK so all that to say this. You never know who your really dealing with. However if you give someone the chance, they will eventually tell on their self.

    I do like to take training, I'm always looking to better myself when it comes to defending myself or an other with a firearm. However, no more than ten minutes into a class I will know if the instructor is the real thing or some blowhard spouting bovine fecal matter. There ARE quality instructors out there who may not have not been in a gunfight but are quite capable of impressing me. If an instructor is a BS artist, I will call them on it.
    Mike1956, AzQkr, Instymp and 3 others like this.

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    I do have quite a bit of self defense experience. More than most, as much as any. This experience is mostly as result of my time working as a policeman. I have zero military experience.
    I've recounted some of it in other threads. I always go into detail (boring) in order to allow others, instructors in particular to be able to use my experience to enhance the capabilities of their own plan, or to share those experiences with their students.

    I think the big disconnect is the reliance on statistics as opposed to experience. Experience too often being discounted. I can remember sitting in a classroom in a street survival course and hearing about a regular exercise that would help. I remember thinking naaaa... not for me. But for the loss of the life of a fellow student, I started practicing it. This exercise saved my life.
    AzQkr, Mike1956, TSKnight and 1 others like this.

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbadger View Post
    As a physician, I was always grateful that I did not have to have all the diseases, disorders and injuries that I treated.
    Ultimately though, you learned how to treat those diseases, disorders and injuries from other doctors who had come before you, who had the experience of treating them before you did.

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Is there any other skill that is taught by someone without practical experience?
    Would you seek out a competitive shooting instructor who never shot a match?

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