Do you announce you are armed during a confrontation? - Page 6

Do you announce you are armed during a confrontation?

This is a discussion on Do you announce you are armed during a confrontation? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Gunsite Rule #2: Never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy....

View Poll Results: Would you "announce" to a threat, or show, that you have a gun?

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I would put my hand where my gun is, or sweep my cover garment.

    2 2.00%
  • Yes, I would draw and brandish the firearm.

    2 2.00%
  • Yes, I would say "I have a gun, back off" without displaying the firearm.

    1 1.00%
  • Yes, I would say "I have a gun" and display the weapon.

    1 1.00%
  • No, I will not display the weapon or announce unless I am going to shoot.

    48 48.00%
  • It depends...

    49 49.00%
  • Other

    6 6.00%
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Thread: Do you announce you are armed during a confrontation?

  1. #76
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
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    Gunsite Rule #2: Never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
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  2. #77
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    A legal factor may exist in other jurisdictions like it does here in Colorado, depending on how involved the post-confrontation legal action becomes. One could get an additional felony charge for indicating by word or action that one is armed:

    "Colorado Revised Statutes 18-3-206. Menacing
    (1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:
    (a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or
    (b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon."
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  3. #78
    Member Array M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    A legal factor may exist in other jurisdictions like it does here in Colorado, depending on how involved the post-confrontation legal action becomes. One could get an additional felony charge for indicating by word or action that one is armed:

    "Colorado Revised Statutes 18-3-206. Menacing
    (1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:
    (a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or
    (b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon."
    Ah, but what are the affirmative defenses? For instance, would it count if the other guy were holding a baseball bat?
    And also, of course, it depends upon which, um, participant called 9-1-1 first? (They seem to prefer to believe the first caller.)
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    Steve
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  5. #79
    Member Array BullsI's Avatar
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    I believe I watched a video in which Jerry Michelek recalled an incident where one or two suspicious characters were approaching him with what appeared to be sinister intentions, like to mug him I assume. He didn't verbalize to them that he had a weapon, but the two soon understood it when he demonstrably put his dominant hand back where his concealed weapon was on his hip and pointed his fore finger on the other hand at the two with the implied meaning being, think twice before you come any closer with evil intent lest you regret it (alternative meaning is, find an easier target than me boys). The two got the message and did a 180, skedaddling back from whence they came. So in a fashion he told them he was armed, yet he did not actually brandish or say it, and, importantly, no actual violence or assault occurred, letting him get on with his day. That's about as far as I would go to "announce", and only if I was confident I could draw and shoot very quickly... which apparently is not an issue for Jerry.

    I think the more difficult question is if you are going to announce before you shoot (eg. bad guy has gun on cashier, and you draw to protect him unbeknownst to the bad guy. Do you shoot straight away, or do you announce you have a gun trained on him first to give him a chance to surrender?) You have to live with it if you shoot straight away killing the perp, although the odds of you being killed go up tremendously if you announce "freeze", etc.
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  6. #80
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1911A1 View Post
    Ah, but what are the affirmative defenses? For instance, would it count if the other guy were holding a baseball bat?
    And also, of course, it depends upon which, um, participant called 9-1-1 first? (They seem to prefer to believe the first caller.)
    If your questions are not rhetorical, I have no answers. I just wanted to note the existence of such statutes. A sensible prosecutor will recognize armed self-defense, but a crusading prosecutor might crucify the same defensive shooter and pile on the charges.

    The poll is closed, but if I saw a suspicious person or persons, I would give no warnings. They are probably not criminals, so I would keep my distance and wait until they make an overt move. BullsI, if I were in a store where a robber was holding a gun on the clerk, if I were close enough I would go for a head shot immediately. Assumptions are always a guess, but I would assume someone threatening with a gun is going to shoot; I think to assume he won't shoot is a mistake.

    The only time I ever thought a violent situation might actually arise, I did nothing and neither did the suspicious pair. I always park in an empty lot or empty section of a lot so I can scope out anything happening near my car from afar. Once upon returning to my car, there was another one paused right beside it, which then looped around and paused near it again, apparently for a closer view from the other side. All I could see was that the other car had 2 heads in it. I didn't break stride, just continued my approach, making sure no one else was behind my potential targets. If they were contemplating boosting my sweet little yellow S2000, maybe they didn't like my looks---they drove away.
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  7. #81
    Member Array M1911A1's Avatar
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    The fact that I know and understand the term "affirmative defense" should be your clue that I was writing rhetorically.

    And about "announce, or just shoot," I reiterate that every instance is (and will be) different.
    There will be situations which require announcement, and situations which require you to shoot first.
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  8. #82
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullsI View Post
    I think the more difficult question is if you are going to announce before you shoot (eg. bad guy has gun on cashier, and you draw to protect him unbeknownst to the bad guy. Do you shoot straight away, or do you announce you have a gun trained on him first to give him a chance to surrender?) You have to live with it if you shoot straight away killing the perp, although the odds of you being killed go up tremendously if you announce "freeze", etc.
    1. The last time I looked it up, the the statistic that the FBI put out was something like 2 out of 1000 armed robberies actually end with the robbers shooting the victim. So the odds are astronomically in your favor that if you do nothing the robber is going to walk out of there with the 30 or $40 in the till and that's going to be the end of it.

    2. Action beats reaction every time. If you warn the robber you're going to shoot all you're doing is giving him a chance to respond.

  9. #83
    Member Array jrwhitt's Avatar
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    Every situation is different and you shouldn't have a "stock" response of "I always do ......." so I answered It Depends

    Observe, Assess, React
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  10. #84
    Member Array BullsI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    1. The last time I looked it up, the the statistic that the FBI put out was something like 2 out of 1000 armed robberies actually end with the robbers shooting the victim. So the odds are astronomically in your favor that if you do nothing the robber is going to walk out of there with the 30 or $40 in the till and that's going to be the end of it.
    I think the stats may be higher than this, if I remember correctly. I had a hard time finding what percentage of armed robberies end with shots fired or secondly victims being actually shot, but I did find this quote from a 2003 DOJ report ( https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt ):

    "For 1993-2001 about a quarter of violent crimes overall
    resulted in an injury to the victim. Crimes committed
    with weapons and crimes committed without weapons were
    about equally likely to result in victim injury (26%).
    Crimes committed with weapons, however, were about 3.5
    times as likely to result in serious injury as crimes
    committed by unarmed offenders (7% versus 2%,
    respectively)."

    The number I seem to recall is that twenty some percent of armed robberies (armed with gun) end in shots being fired. The above quote is similar to that, and the rate of serious injury to the victim is about 7% in an armed robbery, so either stat being substantially more than .2% (although they may be measuring different things...being shot vs 'serious injury'). Regardless, a 7% incidence of serious injury is not an inconsequential number.

    However, I do think there's merit to your post. My plan in such a situation would be, do nothing if the crime is going smoothly and the perp seems to have his act together. If the perp is losing his temper or acting erratically, my guess is the likelihood of violence occurring is unacceptable to ignore and I would take the take a shot to protect the clerk if it were presented to me, especially if I had moderate cover/concealment. You do open Pandora's Box when initiating a gun fight, no doubt, so the bar needs to be high in taking that course of action. You just don't know how it will end, and hopefully one would have a relatively easy shot to make before taking it.

  11. #85
    Member Array M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BullsI View Post
    ...My plan in such a situation would be, do nothing if the crime is going smoothly and the perp seems to have his act together. If the perp is losing his temper or acting erratically, my guess is the likelihood of violence occurring is unacceptable to ignore and I would take the take a shot to protect the clerk if it were presented to me, especially if I had moderate cover/concealment...
    ...And get down low, so you're shooting upwards.
    That way, if your bullet goes all the way through, you'll hit only the holdup perp.
    And if you're close enough, go for the head, neck, and upper chest. Head-and-neck are really good stoppers, according to old police friends.
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    Steve
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  12. #86
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1911A1 View Post
    ...And get down low, so you're shooting upwards.
    That way, if your bullet goes all the way through, you'll hit only the holdup perp.
    That's good advice, particularly because of the large number of misses. As much as we all try to be precise, stats are pretty clear a lot of bullets go whizzing past the intended target.
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  13. #87
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    1. The last time I looked it up, the the statistic that the FBI put out was something like 2 out of 1000 armed robberies actually end with the robbers shooting the victim. So the odds are astronomically in your favor that if you do nothing the robber is going to walk out of there with the 30 or $40 in the till and that's going to be the end of it.

    2. Action beats reaction every time. If you warn the robber you're going to shoot all you're doing is giving him a chance to respond.
    I wasn't trained to depend on those odds or let myself be a victim. That's a victim mentality.

  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I wasn't trained to depend on those odds or let myself be a victim. That's a victim mentality.
    Good to know
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  15. #89
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    Very interesting subject. Personally, I don’t see myself announcing.
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  16. #90
    Senior Member Array ugh762x39's Avatar
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    Many years ago, I took Karate lessons and the Instructor actually covered this type of question. He said that if you were ever in a developing situation, you should be alert for any type of weapon to use that may help...a good stick, rock, bottle or, your belt with a good buckle...anything you think you could use. Now, he said, if you announce to your assailant(s) that you are trained in Martial Arts, 2 things are going to go through their heads. 1) This guy’s full of crap and, 2) This guy might have some training. Then, your attackers are going to either produce a weapon they didn’t previously believe they’d need or, they are going to start looking around for something to use...a good stick, rock, bottle, belt.....Bottom line was Do Not Announce It.
    Now, I have had to draw mine before. Thankfully, that was enough to defuse the situation(s) without having to bring the weapon online or fire.
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