Don't always aim to shoot tiny groups - Page 2

Don't always aim to shoot tiny groups

This is a discussion on Don't always aim to shoot tiny groups within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ShooterGranny @ OldChap said it for me before I got here to read all the replies. SG, you usually manage to phrase ...

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Thread: Don't always aim to shoot tiny groups

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterGranny View Post
    @OldChap said it for me before I got here to read all the replies.
    SG, you usually manage to phrase something in a way that brings out a different but important angle. That's one of the reasons I enjoy this place, plenty of wisdom to absorb.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Sadly this says a lot about the skill of the person writing this drivel:



    Placing your shots may well be the most critical skill lacking in many people who carry for self defense. Anybody can shoot fast. Not many can shoot fast AND accurately. And tiny groups ARE your friend if the first shot doesn't stop the threat.



    Yes...Here is the truth. Brother, you should be writing for Ammoland.
    I think some may be missing his take on this subject. I seriously doubt if he, or any knowledgeable person, would suggest that someone who enters into this world of SD shooting should forget about accuracy and go directly to shooting as fast as they can. To me, that would be borderline lunacy. If one can manage one to two inch groups in rapid fire at, say four or five yards, they've clearly put in some time and are doing well with their sidearm. Even three inch groups are not going to put you in the shooter's doghouse when trying to hit a target in two seconds with three shots from the draw.

    Perhaps the writer should have elaborated on this a bit more in order to dispel any raised eyebrows from those thinking he was advocating to just jump in and start shooting.

    When I hit the range, I fire 10 or 15 rounds out of each gun I take for warm up. This is slower and more deliberate fire mostly to see how I am going to be doing over the next hour and what sort of day I think I'm going to have with my gun and my efforts. This also tells me what I may want to concentrate on that day and what drills I may want to work on more to get myself up to where I want to be. Then I finish off my range time with a group or two as a wrapup. I have already written about where I stand on this topic so I won't belabor that again. If I have to pull my gun and use it, I want to have the training and muscle memory in place to get it on target and starting shooting as quickly as I can. That's how I train with my drills and it works for me.
    Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; September 2nd, 2019 at 10:39 AM.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    IMHO this thought process is circular. Eventually, a few years form now after going to more training and putting more rounds down range, you'll probably here things form the same writer that say "speed is fine but accuracy is final" -Wyatt Earp our whoever said it. People will talk about just getting hits, then after you really dive into it and learn really how to shoot, you find out that you can be surgical in shooting ability as well as be fast. The biggest part of this is knowing when you need to be precise and when you need to be fast, and knowing how to pull the trigger quickly without disturbing site alignment and how to shoot precisely and not rush.

    Most people can only do one and aren't very good at it let alone perform both and be able to switch back and forth. Than once you master that, try and do it with your opposite hand.
    It is very circular. For people not at the apex, its probably wise to work on both speed and accuracy rather than focusing on one at the exclusion of the other.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Sounds like he has just discovered combat shooting, and wants to tell everyone about it.

    Is there a difference in target shooting and defensive shooting practice? Well....duh!
    I agree, but having been a competitive target shooter, I think there are things target shooting can teach that combat shooters would not be hurt by learning, such as sight focus and trigger control. You don't need a 2" group in a gunfight, but a 2" group when you are not under stress could easily turn into a 20" group under fire. At distance, "minute of angle" can become "minute of bad guy." Look at all the many LE shootings where a cop empties a full mag at close range and none of the rounds hit. That is certainly a mindset thing that target shooting can't teach, but it is also the fundamentals of marksmanship, which target shooting can teach.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Sounds like he has just discovered combat shooting, and wants to tell everyone about it.

    Is there a difference in target shooting and defensive shooting practice? Well....duh!


    Exactly!
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
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    Tiny groups are for target shooting.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    To most of us here on DC that's a statement of the obvious, but across the greater gundom it may not be so obvious.

    For example, in the lane next to me on my last range trip were two guys shooting at full sized silhouette targets at 5 yards. They were taking carefully aimed shots, and made tidy 2 inch holes on the center X. It was decent shooting and they were handling their guns safely. Then one guy said to the other "that bad guy wouldn't stand a chance." In reality a guy with a knife at 5 yards could have sliced their necks open in the time it took for their first shots, but they seemed happy with their little groups.
    Yep. I get it. But the reverse is to think that just because one is shooting tiny groups, that they are a one trick pony.
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  9. #23
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    To most of us here on DC that's a statement of the obvious, but across the greater gundom it may not be so obvious.

    For example, in the lane next to me on my last range trip were two guys shooting at full sized silhouette targets at 5 yards. They were taking carefully aimed shots, and made tidy 2 inch holes on the center X. It was decent shooting and they were handling their guns safely. Then one guy said to the other "that bad guy wouldn't stand a chance." In reality a guy with a knife at 5 yards could have sliced their necks open in the time it took for their first shots, but they seemed happy with their little groups.

    I hate to bust your bubble but there are very few people who carry a gun for self defense who do not grasp the difference between playing around on the range for fun and downing a badguy. Not many people who are facing a badguy are going to stand there for 25 second with controlled breathing as they slowly articulate a trigger and all the while noticing every gritty or spongy nuance of that process. Those same people are not likely to have the same expectation while they are goofing around on the range as they would in a dark hallway facing a home invader. People do not care about groups when they are defending their life, they simply want to land hits on target.


    As far as the guys who were next to you at the range, you cant possible develop a merited hypothesis regarding their mental processes or fighting methodology from such superficial banter. It certainly would not be fair to make any sort of judgement regarding their idea of self defense shooting. Perhaps they were just goofing around and talking crap.

    I like to goof around on the range sometimes( just like the guys next to you). I simply like to remind myself that I have a decent grasp of basic marksmanship and can actually control my gun well enough to hit a smallish target. That is not how I train and during training my targets are generally a mess. If I can keep the majority in a 10 inch group while on the move, I am doing just great. Even then, I will still have some hits on target that are outside of that boundary.

    I train for real life and not ego.

    Sure, I could elect to disregard the potential danger that a target is supposed to represent. I could marginalize critical tactics and simply stand and shoot where optimal, comfortable and ultimately land better shots .. but that is not how real life unfolds. In real life, the first inclination that you are in trouble is when the pavement smacks you in the face or you suddenly realize that you are talking incoming. There is no ready set go.. its just instantaneous chaos which likely occurs at the worst time and when you are in the worst position to deal with it. If a person wants to train, I say train for that. If you want to goof around on the range, there is nothing wrong with that either. Everyone does it, me, you everyone.. we should probably be able to have some fun without someone passing too critical a judgment of us.

    A little thing about the 2" group:

    If you can shoot a 2" group under perfect conditions, you can probably shoot a 10 group under stress and on the move
    If your shooting is a mess under perfect conditions, you are probably missing the target entirely while under stress and on the move.
    just something to think about.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Yep. I get it. But the reverse is to think that just because one is shooting tiny groups, that they are a one trick pony.
    Of course. Those guys might have been able to surprise me with speed skills too, after all, they were able to get decent precision groups. They just didn't give me the impression quick shots were of any concern.
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  11. #25
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    I've said on occasion that I've shot enough Bullseye courses of fire to fill a 55 Gal drum with the empties thus I'm will versed in the fundamentals'. When I shoot at 3-7-&-10yards, its all rapid fire with reasonable accuracy!
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  12. #26
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    What's wrong with paper plates, especially when you move them in increments to 50 yards. Cheaper and good enough for what I want to achieve.

  13. #27
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    You got to walk before you run.. I like point shooting out to 15 yards ; ) PS After you master trigger control.
    H/D
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  14. #28
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    In years of shooting semi-informal IDPA type matches, I learned that there was a point where pushing myself a bit too much for speed destroyed my accuracy. Then it was time to back off a bit, increasing the speed in smaller increments. It worked for me then and still does.

    Age and physical problems have taken a toll on my speed but I'm still pretty darned accurate. I HATE those tiny 1/2" to 1 1/2" dot torture test targets though. To me a 2" x 3" group (shooting double taps or triple taps) at what is general considered self defense distances is acceptable. If I could do better, of course I would.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    What's wrong with paper plates, especially when you move them in increments to 50 yards. Cheaper and good enough for what I want to achieve.
    At fifty yards, shooting a paper plate is a dot torture exercise.
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  16. #30
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    I don't follow a lot of gun/shooting channels on y-tube, but on of my favorites is T.Rex Arms. There was a video titled "Why you should miss when shooting". This combines accuracy and speed, start off slow and accurate, then speed up till you miss, this is your breaking point. Now you go back and figure out why you missed and train till you can go further. There will come a point to where you can't be accurate when shooting your fastest and this will be the limits of your abilities. Can you shoot faster? Yes, but at what cost. I am no where near the shooter Lucas is, but I'm working myself there. I don't have a shot timer, but my son or wife helps me out with a stop watch. With my AR, I can go pretty fast with groups in the X and 10 rings on a B-27 target. I can keep this same level of accuracy out to 50 yrds, but with a more slower rate of fire. I also have the same level of accuracy with my carry pistol out to 12 feet. Once my shots start to open up more than that, I slow back down and work myself back up. Speed means nothing if you don't have the accuracy to go with it. If you are only capable of going a certain speed while keeping your accuracy, then you will have to face that fact and keep shooting at that level. As one gets older, you will loose eye sight and/or muscular movements, this will further decrease your speed and accuracy and will have to make changes in the firearms you shoot and the way you shoot.
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