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Training drawing from a purse holster

3K views 82 replies 17 participants last post by  G-man* 
#1 ·
@MillennialNorth asked a good question concerning draw times from a purse.

I would like like to take a little time here to explain the teaching method and reasons for how she is learning.

But first, I would like to put it out there that in no way am I implying that I know it all, or that what I am doing is the only way. I am basing what I teach her based on my experience with criminals, my training on the use of deadly force, and what I feel is the most necessary building blocks for a solid foundation.

Now for the timer. At this time, I have not introduced timed fire for her because it is way down the list of priorities. Actually I view timed fire as not a priority at all because even though it may be interesting , and a good way to measure progress such as first strike capability in a controlled environment, my experience has lead me to believe that it’s best value is as a confidence builder and great care should be taken not to place much emphasis on something that is an uncontrollable variable in the reality of the way things go down.

Since she already has a very good grasp on the fundamentals, we are concentrating on observance and recognition first, preemptive action second combined with loud verbal commands to stop, and shooting lastly.

Preemptive actions using loud verbal commands is designed to draw attention of bystanders, and to help set up a defense by showing that she was trying to get someone to stop an action that she felt threatening. Having witnesses that say they heard someone yell “ STOP!” repeatedly will pay dividends legally.
Preemptive also includes hand placement on the gun that is still concealed as she walks so that it may be brought to bear in this encounter. It includes the draw, and one handed manipulation to the first shot, movement as shooting, and assessment from the ready position.

At this point, she can draw and shoot from any direction and make hits on a paper plate out to 10 yards. She can also continue shooting as she moves quicker and brings her support hand in to play.
Soon, she will drawing and shooting on the sprint; not some poor imitation of moving such as a foot shuffle that resembles a line dance, as we have seen, but a sudden, all out attempt to move like your life really depends on it....and make accurate hits!

This weekend, I will introduce her to using a flashlight at night. She will learn how to use it to aide circumvent potential threats before they can make any attempts, and how to use it to illuminate her sights and threat if needed for accurate shooting.
She will learn the importance and utility of a flashlight, period.

She will learn to get to a safe spot, and remain vigilant while calling 911 after a defensive shooting, What to say, what not to say, and how to act when they arrive, as well as how not to be perceived as a threat when they see her.

Then later on, when these things are second nature for her, we can play with a timer. But my prediction is that her drawing from a holster in her purse that her hand is already on, would be significantly faster than my draw from a concealed holster.
 
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#2 ·
I agree that the timer practice should come later. Nothing worse than putting that kind of pressure on a person who is learning new things, is there? The old, oft repeated saying: Slow and smooth applies to most any kind of draw.........slow is smooth.............smooth is fast.........practice, practice, practice.

You are giving your wife several hundred dollars worth of very valuable lessons (if she had to go somewhere and pay). Congratulations to you and especially to HER for being dedicated to learning, and obviously learning quite well.
 
#5 ·
Depending on where you would go, it might be more than several hundred. She will have over 40 hours of training when we are finished.
But I’m blessed with the property and space to do this for her, and span it out over a few months.

The plus for me is I am easing my mind when she has to work late and go from her office to the car in a dim lit lot.
 
#3 ·
Thanks. My thoughts revolved around a surprise attack close quarters while hands are busy doing normal public chores ie. Loading groceries, pumping gas, etc. Drawing from behind the curve so to speak. We might not always have the indicators we are looking for and hoping to see in time.

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#4 ·
This is true.

But look at it this way;

If you already have your hand on the gun because the way you carry permits it without raising suspicion, you are leaps and bounds ahead of someone who has to access, and draw.

She doesn’t even have to draw, she can shoot thru the purse. It’s kind of difficult to beat that regardless of time.

The thing is, even with training, a half assed surprise attack is still a surprise. No training can make you immune to every possible situation.
Sometimes, it just comes down to intestinal fortitude and a will to prevail.

Other than that, it’s all the battle cry of the “ what if!?” brigade.
 
#9 ·
I am not a proponent of in-the-purse carry.
There's just too much that can go wrong.

Get distracted, and lose track of your purse for a couple of minutes, and some grabber has gotten a pistol for Christmas.
Get distracted, and put the purse down "for a second," and some small, curious child may dig into it and find a very surprising "BANG!"
Some strong guy snatches the purse, and he gets a pleasant surprise: A new gun!

A person can't keep her hand inside her purse all day long.
And getting inside the purse to access the pistol is not a speedy act.
So presenting from on-the-body concealment is a whole lot quicker than presenting from within a purse, if her hand isn't already on the gun.
And on-the-body concealment is a whole lot safer, too.

My wife, Jean, and I have worked on this issue quite a bit, and we have found some answers which satisfy her. That's not to say that the same answers will also satisfy your wife, of course.
If you're interested in what Jean found, let me know.
 
#10 ·
Well you opened the Pandora box: on body vs off body. Big gun in purse/bag vs little gun on body.
Besides why cant you keep your hand in your purse everywhere you go? Thats the question that doesnt get answered. Kinda like pocket carry. People are all for it as there primary way, except when you ask them whats the time to draw with the hand outside of pocket. Then the crickets start.
I wouldn't want a 5-6 second draw time using 2 hands just to put it in a bag vs <2 seconds on the belt.
But its a free country to choose.

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#11 · (Edited)
@MillennialNorth and @M1911A1:

I am not a proponent of purse carry. It was not my suggestion.

However, I approach it with her just like I would anyone else. I do not try to dictate what they should do, what they should carry, or how they should carry it.
My goal is to give them the good, bad and ugly and allow them to make their own choices, and then help them maximize the benefits, and minimize the consequences to that endeavor.

The thread was not meant to be a debate about the virtues or lack therein of a mode of carry, but simply an explanation of the training that I was giving as a guide or to give ideas to anyone else who may be looking at this as an option for a loved one or friend.

And to that end, that is all.
 
#29 ·
@MillennialNorth and @M1911A1:

I am not a proponent of pocket carry. It was not my suggestion.

However, I approach it with her just like I would anyone else. I do not try to dictate what they should do, what they should carry, or how they should carry it.
My goal is to give them the good, bad and ugly and allow them to make their own choices, and then help them maximize the benefits, and minimize the consequences to that endeavor.

The thread was not meant to be a debate about the virtues or lack therein of a mode of carry, but simply an explanation of the training that I was giving as a guide or to give ideas to anyone else who may be looking at this as an option for a loved one or friend.

And to that end, that is all.
I've heard all the arguments too, Trying to tell other people what they can't do is rarely going to change minds!
Off body carry is just another tool in the box, how she uses that tool makes all the difference.
This is just like telling carriers that wearing a crossdraw holster is an invitation to have your gun grabbed! Except when you are seated! Then its the right tool for that job! Carry on! [how ever you carry!] DR
 
#17 ·
I'm a big believer in muscle memory training.

I've told this story before but I used to have a job checking electrical substations in rural El Paso county in the middle of the night. I would walk around thos substations and practice four point draws from my Safariland holster. I didn't try to do it fast, I just practiced doing correctly over and over and over and over and over all night long. I'm quite certain I drew that gun more than 500 times every night.

I was on my way to work one night when someone started shooting at the end of my parking lot. I hit the ground and looked around to see what was happening and that's when I realized I had drawn my gun without even thinking about it.
 
#44 ·
My wife carries every day. Most of the time it's on her belt. Sometimes she carries in her purse. Why? She has clothes that you can't use a belt with. Do I like purse carry? No, but it's better than leaving it at home. We've tried a bellyband but she doesn't like them when wearing a dress or tight stretchy pants. I've tried to talk her out of purse carry and failed.

I have to admit tho, I like the way she looks in her tight stretchy pants! :danceban:
 
#46 ·
Good training is good training.
My personal views are just that and they do not apply to my wife because she has her own.
My wife is not a gun person like I am even though she has been a big game hunter for 35 years she views guns as tools to accomplish a task, nothing more.
I have never pushed her to carry a firearm because I have learned a couple of things in my life when it comes to living with strong willed women.

One day this last summer after having met a person out in the middle of nowhere that gave her the creeps she told me she was going to start packing a gun on her photography trips, which she does alone in very remote places at times. Yes, the dog is with her but she is small and not intimidating in the least.

I asked her what gun she wanted and she said the GP100. So, guess which gun she got? I did not try to talk her into the model 10 which she has loaded at home because she did not want the 10 for those remote places. She shoots the Ruger well and handles it with confidence so my only response is to impart any knowledge I may have to help her carry a 357 magnum in a camera pack.

I could tell her that the pack is not ideal because its off body but, she already knows that. I could try and convince her that a smaller gun on body is better but, again she already knows that and is not going to do that, case closed.

Knowing she has a capable gun with her gives me some piece of mind even though we "gun people" don't think it an ideal carry method.
So, I look at this thread as a "how to train a person with their chosen carry method" vs, "how to talk someone into carrying your way".

Life is compromise so we do what we can and move on. Today I have off and we are going exploring to some new places so I have a 1911 at 3:00 and a 642 AIWB. Part of the reason for the 642 is because my wife does not carry when we are together but, she will take the 642 if I have to step into a store or talk to some stranded motorist or something that separates us.
I work with what I have and don't sweat the stuff I can't control.
 
#48 ·
A couple of things about purse carry.
  • Guys saying they are "not proponents of purse carry" should just not carry purses themselves and STFU about what women should do. Women have, and are entitled to have, their own views on how they should, or should not, accessorize and guy's opinions do not count. I learned this from my wife, who spent her career in fashion retail management, including two high-end French purse companies. Women may nod their heads at guys' opinions on this, but they will go ahead and do what they want. If they are being trained on what a guy wants them to do, the guy should know that is not how it is going to happen the real world. I have foolishly tried for years just to get my wife to have her phone and keys where she can find them in her purse. She even bought a purse organizer. Nothing has worked and I have learned my lesson.
  • One thing women might want to consider based on the recommendation of other women (not me!) is so-called "New York" purse carry. A heavy, as close to unbreakable strap as possible, long enough to go diagonally across the chest, rather than just over the shoulder. That keeps the purse more secure against the body, makes it less likely she will set the purse down and is a deterrent to thieves, because they know a purse theft will not be a simple grab and run, or so I have read.
I actually have no opinion whatsoever on the matter.
 
#61 ·
A couple of things about purse carry.
  • Guys saying they are "not proponents of purse carry" should just not carry purses themselves and STFU about what women should do. Women have, and are entitled to have, their own views on how they should, or should not, accessorize and guy's opinions do not count. I learned this from my wife, who spent her career in fashion retail management, including two high-end French purse companies. Women may nod their heads at guys' opinions on this, but they will go ahead and do what they want. If they are being trained on what a guy wants them to do, the guy should know that is not how it is going to happen the real world. I have foolishly tried for years just to get my wife to have her phone and keys where she can find them in her purse. She even bought a purse organizer. Nothing has worked and I have learned my lesson.
  • One thing women might want to consider based on the recommendation of other women (not me!) is so-called "New York" purse carry. A heavy, as close to unbreakable strap as possible, long enough to go diagonally across the chest, rather than just over the shoulder. That keeps the purse more secure against the body, makes it less likely she will set the purse down and is a deterrent to thieves, because they know a purse theft will not be a simple grab and run, or so I have read.
I actually have no opinion whatsoever on the matter.
Agree with everything stated, and find it very true.
 
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#60 ·
I have no ideation that off body carry such as in a bag present issues.
However, likewise, I have no ideations that it is better to have no gun accessible than to have one available and know how to use it.

I suppose I will have to do another video on this subject, as I have found that the best way to demonstrate an idea and achieve the STFU, is not by talking but doing.

So stay tuned.....
 
#69 ·
@MillennialNorth asked a good question concerning draw times from a purse.

I would like like to take a little time here to explain the teaching method and reasons for how she is learning.

But first, I would like to put it out there that in no way am I implying that I know it all, or that what I am doing is the only way. I am basing what I teach her based on my experience with criminals, my training on the use of deadly force, and what I feel is the most necessary building blocks for a solid foundation.

Now for the timer. At this time, I have not introduced timed fire for her because it is way down the list of priorities. Actually I view timed fire as not a priority at all because even though it may be interesting , and a good way to measure progress such as first strike capability in a controlled environment, my experience has lead me to believe that it’s best value is as a confidence builder and great care should be taken not to place much emphasis on something that is an uncontrollable variable in the reality of the way things go down.

Since she already has a very good grasp on the fundamentals, we are concentrating on observance and recognition first, preemptive action second combined with loud verbal commands to stop, and shooting lastly.

Preemptive actions using loud verbal commands is designed to draw attention of bystanders, and to help set up a defense by showing that she was trying to get someone to stop an action that she felt threatening. Having witnesses that say they heard someone yell “ STOP!” repeatedly will pay dividends legally.
Preemptive also includes hand placement on the gun that is still concealed as she walks so that it may be brought to bear in this encounter. It includes the draw, and one handed manipulation to the first shot, movement as shooting, and assessment from the ready position.

At this point, she can draw and shoot from any direction and make hits on a paper plate out to 10 yards. She can also continue shooting as she moves quicker and brings her support hand in to play.
Soon, she will drawing and shooting on the sprint; not some poor imitation of moving such as a foot shuffle that resembles a line dance, as we have seen, but a sudden, all out attempt to move like your life really depends on it....and make accurate hits!

This weekend, I will introduce her to using a flashlight at night. She will learn how to use it to aide circumvent potential threats before they can make any attempts, and how to use it to illuminate her sights and threat if needed for accurate shooting.
She will learn the importance and utility of a flashlight, period.

She will learn to get to a safe spot, and remain vigilant while calling 911 after a defensive shooting, What to say, what not to say, and how to act when they arrive, as well as how not to be perceived as a threat when they see her.

Then later on, when these things are second nature for her, we can play with a timer. But my prediction is that her drawing from a holster in her purse that her hand is already on, would be significantly faster than my draw from a concealed holster.
The bottom line, right down there where it belongs. The draw from hand-on-gun wherever will always be significantly faster than anything coming off the belt line.
 
#76 ·
The malfunction rate of shooting in the bag was HUGE and that was with a variety of guns and the level of accuracy was extremely low.

The only way I could make it worth while was to use a G26 mounted muzzle toward the bottom of the bag.

Nothing about purse carry yielded optimal results as far as getting the gun into play NOW.

Its fine for "Having a gun" and as long as you can get a preemptive draw

Shooting through the purse can be VERY problematic. In some cases we had slugs not making it out of the bag due to other items in the bag.

Other projectiles had a tendency to yaw before hitting the target which will decrease ballistic performance.



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#78 ·
Here's a couple of the bags we shot through.

Some were gun bags from Pistol Packing Mamas and some were Goodwill purchases for testing and some of the wife's old bags.

Surprisingly the purpose built gun bags seemed to be more problematic to shoot through as they were very well made.


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#79 ·
@JD,thanks for the pics and your input.

Here are my wife's options, because she refuses to dress around carrying a gun.

Go back to a 32 in a regular handbag, or a 45 auto in a purposes designed bag....or no carry at all.

So to bring this to a complete circle, this is where we are.
Therefore, the thing to do is to proceed with a plan that fits, even if it means coming up with a philosophy of use that is uniquely suited to her needs and purpose .

And over the next few months that will be the mission. And who knows, she may come to see that its not what she feels comfortable with , based on her own abilities and results from it.

There will definitely be a run on purses at Goodwill stores.

However, like it or not, handbag/purse carry is a thing. Very popular for many woman who will not dress around a firearm. So here we are.

And, getting back to the beginning and on track, with it a given that there are some undesirable things about off body carry, it seems to me that it makes more sense to support the choice and work to make it as practical and efficient as possible.

So, to that end I will proceed with it, report the findings and progress with future threads and full video documentation, and if nothing else it may help either reinforce that it just a no-go, or , highlight the potential; either way, it will be informative and hopefully helpful to someone in a similar situation.
 
#82 ·
Here are my wife's options, because she refuses to dress around carrying a gun.

Go back to a 32 in a regular handbag, or a 45 auto in a purposes designed bag....or no carry at all.

So to bring this to a complete circle, this is where we are.
She does carry her P32 on her person while going for walks, yes? Can she not carry that way as her EDC? Perhaps in addition to the gun in her purse?

My wife had a difficult time finding a way to on-body carry, after purse carry was ruled (by her) a no-go. Now with the Flashbang holster, she has gone from rarely carrying to carrying almost always. She has the one with the suede covering which makes it comfortable against the skin. Her LCP is the same size as your wife’s P32.

Access with an untucked blouse is very fast.

Maybe another option for her consideration?
 
#80 ·
I'm not knocking it, I'm just sharing what we found out.

A lot of talk about bags seemed to be by a bunch of people that had never done any actual work from the bag so we waited to see the processes for ourselves.

From what I observed there are a couple ways to optimize it.

I think a shorter gun will run better IN the bag as there's less slide travel to get hung up in the bag and that stiff recoil spring is going to be more stout.

The Glock 26 we ran was the most reliable in the bag. The JFrame in .38 set the bag on fire which could be a little problematic depending on the bag.

By shooting through the bottom of the bag there was less chance of clutter constructing the shot.....

Flights are starting....


To be continued.


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