Shooting from retention

Shooting from retention

This is a discussion on Shooting from retention within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a pretty good article about some force on force scenarios. If you ever get a chance to take some training like this I ...

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Thread: Shooting from retention

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array forester58's Avatar
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    Shooting from retention

    This is a pretty good article about some force on force scenarios. If you ever get a chance to take some training like this I can tell you it is sobering and very valuable for someone who plans to defend themselves and carries a firearm. Might even change your mind on what and how you carry.

    My previous training is one reason I still cling to a 642 carried appendix in a high retention Phlster kydex holster when on paper there are so many "better" options. Force on force training is what got me to get rid of all my clip holsters...all of them. Just getting in a fight and never needing the gun at least I still had the gun in my possession afterwards.

    I know we are all getting older and slower and weaker, lets face it but, you would be surprised what you can do if you need to.

    https://www.integratedskillsgroup.com/blog/retention

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    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forester58 View Post
    This is a pretty good article about some force on force scenarios. If you ever get a chance to take some training like this I can tell you it is sobering and very valuable for someone who plans to defend themselves and carries a firearm. Might even change your mind on what and how you carry.

    My previous training is one reason I still cling to a 642 carried appendix in a high retention Phlster kydex holster when on paper there are so many "better" options. Force on force training is what got me to get rid of all my clip holsters...all of them. Just getting in a fight and never needing the gun at least I still had the gun in my possession afterwards.

    I know we are all getting older and slower and weaker, lets face it but, you would be surprised what you can do if you need to.

    https://www.integratedskillsgroup.com/blog/retention
    I agree with this.

    And itís part and parcel to why I am not concerned with quick draw times as a way to gauge capability.

    You must have hand to hand training, because if you think you are going to always be able to draw your gun without, or when, you are being pummeled, then I think you are fooling yourself.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.Ē
    -Jeff Cooper

    ď Looking around doesnít cost you anything; and itís a healthy habitĒ
    -Joe Foss

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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    I agree with this.

    And itís part and parcel to why I am not concerned with quick draw times as a way to gauge capability.

    You must have hand to hand training, because if you think you are going to always be able to draw your gun without, or when, you are being pummeled, then I think you are fooling yourself.
    How about if I'm biting the BG's ear off, will my hands be free to plug him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    How about if I'm biting the BG's ear off, will my hands be free to plug him?
    Wake up and have another drink.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Wake up and have another drink.
    The Mike Tyson School of Self Defense was a bad investment, huh?
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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    The article might be the best I have ever read about the reality of SD and training for it. I particularly appreciated two lines:

    smoking cardboard knuckleheads by the dozen is easy in comparison to fighting a living breathing human who doesn't wanna get shot and wants to shoot you.
    First things first, having the first move as a "good guy" (see:*regular citizen) isn't going to happen. Period.
    The average and more likely SD situation is going to happen between face-to-face and 15 feet with the shorter distances being most likely. All that Isosceles posturing, running around shooting multiple targets, shooting from cover is not going to keep your bacon out of the frying pan. Self preservation will be dependent upon your ability to repel the aggressor who is in your face and/or the speed with which you can draw and shoot. That is why I trained in CenterAxis Relock gunfighting system. Based stance, gun close to the body, one have free for use in fact-to-face situation, and more. I wish I had learned that before having the nasty experience of clearing buildings in Hue City with a M1911.

    I believe that training should be focused on the most likely scenario not the least likely. And the most likely is CQB. The article has inspired me to take a refresher course in C.A.R. I am going to schedule that now. It never hurts to retrain for reality. It is a lot better than extensive training for the unlikely..

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    Training is always a good thing....anything we can do to enhance our skills keeps us in the fight !!!
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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    The article might be the best I have ever read about the reality of SD and training for it. I particularly appreciated two lines:





    The average and more likely SD situation is going to happen between face-to-face and 15 feet with the shorter distances being most likely. All that Isosceles posturing, running around shooting multiple targets, shooting from cover is not going to keep your bacon out of the frying pan. Self preservation will be dependent upon your ability to repel the aggressor who is in your face and/or the speed with which you can draw and shoot. That is why I trained in CenterAxis Relock gunfighting system. Based stance, gun close to the body, one have free for use in fact-to-face situation, and more. I wish I had learned that before having the nasty experience of clearing buildings in Hue City with a M1911.

    I believe that training should be focused on the most likely scenario not the least likely. And the most likely is CQB. The article has inspired me to take a refresher course in C.A.R. I am going to schedule that now. It never hurts to retrain for reality. It is a lot better than extensive training for the unlikely..
    The fight is going to be what the fight is. Why not train/prepare for ANY fight?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    The fight is going to be what the fight is. Why not train/prepare for ANY fight?
    Of course you should be prepared to fight any kind of fight. When I wrote that focus should be the kind of fight that is likely to occur I did not mean to imply or assert that such focus should be the only training. I see it a proportionality. A person might get into the running gun battle that requires shoot and scoot maneuvering from cover to cover. while facing one or multiple attackers. But what is the likelihood of that? Other than law enforcement actions I cannot recall a single report of a person being engaged in an incident that requires that shoot and scoot training. Of course anything can happen

    I subscribe to my face-to-face to 15 feet engagement rule because that the reality of the vast majority of gunfights. IN the home the average room os going to be somewhere between 9 and 15 feet and mostly near square. On the street the attacker is likely to be within that distance. If an attacker shoots at. you from cover then you need to take cover Now here is my rule. If I were involved in that sort of attack I will get to cover and stay there. I am not going to advance on the attacker. I would prefer he come to me because he has to expose himself which gives me the better chance to win.

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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Of course you should be prepared to fight any kind of fight. When I wrote that focus should be the kind of fight that is likely to occur I did not mean to imply or assert that such focus should be the only training.


    I see it a proportionality. A person might get into the running gun battle that requires shoot and scoot maneuvering from cover to cover. while facing one or multiple attackers. But what is the likelihood of that? Other than law enforcement actions I cannot recall a single report of a person being engaged in an incident that requires that shoot and scoot training. Of course anything can happen
    Active shooter. Abilene, Texas, El Paso, Texas. French movie theater massacre, Mumbai, India attack, to name a few. OK sure, they were just massacres because there was no effective armed response. On the flip side you have the mall attack in South Africa near the IDPA club. Why limit yourself? Is it really that difficult to train for 25+ yards and CQB? Nope.

    I subscribe to my face-to-face to 15 feet engagement rule because that the reality of the vast majority of gunfights.
    Of whose gunfights?

    IN the home the average room os going to be somewhere between 9 and 15 feet and mostly near square.
    Maybe in your house.

    On the street the attacker is likely to be within that distance. If an attacker shoots at. you from cover then you need to take cover Now here is my rule. If I were involved in that sort of attack I will get to cover and stay there. I am not going to advance on the attacker. I would prefer he come to me because he has to expose himself which gives me the better chance to win.
    I would not make any hard rules, besides winning.
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post




    Active shooter. Abilene, Texas, El Paso, Texas. French movie theater massacre, Mumbai, India attack, to name a few. OK sure, they were just massacres because there was no effective armed response. On the flip side you have the mall attack in South Africa near the IDPA club. Why limit yourself? Is it really that difficult to train for 25+ yards and CQB? Nope.



    Of whose gunfights?



    Maybe in your house.



    I would not make any hard rules, besides winning.
    I do not have hard rules. I have common sense tactics based upon the most likely incident I might. encounter. You mentioned mass shootings. That is not what we normally would have to defend against. But if you do have to my common sense tactic is to take cover and make the perp come to me. Just like I said in ,y post. As to gunfights between face to face and 15 feet there are numerous examples of civilians, LEOs, military having them. Yes there are longer range gun fights but when a man on the street or in your house attacks you he is very unlikely to be more than 15 feet away. I understand you have your own perceptions and have prepared for them Good for you for taking positive steps. I have done the same thing. I had my share of offensive gunfights in Nam. and many were CQB. But today I train for CQD, Close Quarter Defense. The words Close Quarter are key to the training. Resst assured that if I have to shoot at someone from cover, on the move, or at distances over 15 feet I can do it. I just don not expect to ever ave to do it. That is not laxity. It is priority.

    FYI: the link leads to an FBI stat for 2108 showing the distance between killed officer victim and shooter. Most happen with 20 feet.
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2018/topic...s/table-32.xls

    Here is a link to an article of why the FBI redesigned its firearms training:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ining/1811053/
    And here is. quote:
    The new training protocols were formally implemented last January after a review of nearly 200 shootings involving FBI agents during a 17-year period. The analysis found that 75% of the incidents involved suspects who were within 3 yards of agents when shots were exchanged.
    Now is it reasonable to assume that something similar happens to civilian encounters? Yes it is.
    Perp must be at at least rms length to attack with fists, feet, club, knee, etc. Bad guy with a gun is generally out to rob you, steal your car, or otherwise hurt you and that means he gets close.

    Finally let's examine the odds of being in a mass shooting and traing with that in mind. there are 330 million people in the US. in 2019 about 11,000 have been killed by guns and that includes accidents and murders. That means .000033 of the total population are killed by guns. Now lets consider mass shootings. there have been 247 people killed in mass shootings in the same period. That is .00000075 of the total population. each of us in much more likely to be killed by a murderer or by accident than by a mass shooter.

    So I still maintain that one should concentrate most training based on probability not possibility.
    Last edited by 1942bull; November 30th, 2019 at 01:02 AM.

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