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The AR pistol: why it's better to buy one instead of building one...

This is a discussion on The AR pistol: why it's better to buy one instead of building one... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Havok ...I could show the officer an AR pistol on any manufacturers website just to show him that AR pistols are a ...

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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    ...I could show the officer an AR pistol on any manufacturers website just to show him that AR pistols are a real thing.
    That could prove to be a double-edged sword. What you would be doing is showing him that no one manufactured the gun you have. By showing him pics of manufacturer's guns, he could get the impression that you're trying to mislead him into believing something you have is legal because somebody manufacturers something you claim is similar. It just doesn't remove suspicion.

    The next thing you would have to prove to him is that it is legal for you to build a pistol. It's not that you couldn't, but it may prove difficult. Here's a LEO being told by someone he doesn't know that has with a loaded, home-brew AR-15 and that person is trying to convince him he's legal because something similar is available from some manufacturer by legal channels.

    OTOH, showing him a pic on the manufacturer's website of your exact gun in every detail, right down to the model number is clean, concise, and very convincing.

    By no means am I trying to discourage you from building a pistol or saying it's wrong to or anything of the sort. I'm just saying being able to show exactness is better than trying to argue equivalency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    ...If they are going to arrest you over it, they are probably going to find a way to justify it no matter what.
    Sure, if you're going to be arrested no matter what, then you'll be arrested. But for the more probable cases where the LEO is trying to decide, it would be advantageous to keep the proof as quick, concise, and exact as possible to avoid potential complications.

    These are just things to consider - that's all - I think of it as obeying the KISS principle.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That could prove to be a double-edged sword. What you would be doing is showing him that no one manufactured the gun you have. By showing him pics of manufacturer's guns, he could get the impression that you're trying to mislead him into believing something you have is legal because somebody manufacturers something you claim is similar. It just doesn't remove suspicion.

    The next thing you would have to prove to him is that it is legal for you to build a pistol. It's not that you couldn't, but it may prove difficult. Here's a LEO being told by someone he doesn't know that has with a loaded, home-brew AR-15 and that person is trying to convince him he's legal because something similar is available from some manufacturer by legal channels.

    OTOH, showing him a pic on the manufacturer's website of your exact gun in every detail, right down to the model number is clean, concise, and very convincing.

    By no means am I trying to discourage you from building a pistol or saying it's wrong to or anything of the sort. I'm just saying being able to show exactness is better than trying to argue equivalency.


    Sure, if you're going to be arrested no matter what, then you'll be arrested. But for the more probable cases where the LEO is trying to decide, it would be advantageous to keep the proof as quick, concise, and exact as possible to avoid potential complications.

    These are just things to consider - that's all - I think of it as obeying the KISS principle.
    Nobody manufacturing the exact gun I possess is not a crime. Ether way, if I am arrested for having a loaded rifle in the truck, and I don’t even have a rifle in the truck, it will probably result in a decent settlement
    a poor plan that is well executed will produce better results that a good plan that is poorly executed.

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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Nobody manufacturing the exact gun I possess is not a crime.
    And, you would not be arrested for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    ...Ether way, if I am arrested for having a loaded rifle in the truck, and I don’t even have a rifle in the truck, it will probably result in a decent settlement
    It could, and that may be to your advantage financially. Then again, you may get nothing but an apology and a very disrupted life. It's just something I want to avoid, if there's a simple way to avoid it and I believe there is.

    But, I think you're taking me wrong here. I'm not saying anything would ever happen to you, these are just things to consider before hand. Maybe by having this discussion you'll be well prepared to deal with a LEO that's not a gun person should the unlikely event occur.
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  5. #79
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    Normally what happens in these circumstances where there is doubt or disagreement between the officer and someone that is being questioned, is, that the officer will call for the precinct or sector supervisor, usually a Sergeant, to come and assist or advice.

    You do not want to be that officer that makes a stupid or unfounded arrest, so, they are going to get to the bottom of it right there and then.

    Or, you could just carry a Glock and a Happy Stick avoiding it all together
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  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Normally what happens in these circumstances where there is doubt or disagreement between the officer and someone that is being questioned, is, that the officer will call for the precinct or sector supervisor, usually a Sergeant, to come and assist or advice.

    You do not want to be that officer that makes a stupid or unfounded arrest, so, they are going to get to the bottom of it right there and then.

    Or, you could just carry a Glock and a Happy Stick avoiding it all together
    I agree. I'm afraid some are offended that I've tried to offer some food for thought. But I agree with you 100% - avoidance is by far the better course. And folks, this advice is coming from a long-time LEO.

    In addition, I'm still searching for how a AR pistol (ARP) is such a viable thing FOR ME PERSONALLY, not anyone else, to carry in a car. It's heavy, long, and unwieldy and would be very slow to bring into action. If I get out of the car to do something, what do I do with the ARP? If it's already secure and out of sight, it's even more inaccessible if I need it in a hurry. And we're certainly not going to carry it under a jacket. etc. into Walmart, etc.

    I'm liking your plan more and more, Well, I don't feel that I need the "joy" sticks, but I do carry an extra 15 round mag (with only 14 rounds in it) at school.
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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I agree. I'm afraid some are offended that I've tried to offer some food for thought. But I agree with you 100% - avoidance is by far the better course. And folks, this advice is coming from a long-time LEO.

    In addition, I'm still searching for how a AR pistol (ARP) is such a viable thing FOR ME PERSONALLY, not anyone else, to carry in a car. It's heavy, long, and unwieldy and would be very slow to bring into action. If I get out of the car to do something, what do I do with the ARP? If it's already secure and out of sight, it's even more inaccessible if I need it in a hurry. And we're certainly not going to carry it under a jacket. etc. into Walmart, etc.

    I'm liking your plan more and more, Well, I don't feel that I need the "joy" sticks, but I do carry an extra 15 round mag (with only 14 rounds in it) at school.
    The thing is, that people get offended if someone has another opinion of their toys, which, IMO is all an AR pistol is.

    Sure, it’s kind of neat, makes a fun range gun, but like the Scout Rifle, is a niche gun.

    Yeah, I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree, but I have enough practical experience to apply a little critical thinking here and see that the cons are greater than the pro’s for just about every practical application.

    Its kind of like the Judge or S&W Governor; neither fish nor fowl.

    Jack of all trades and Master of none:)
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Normally what happens in these circumstances where there is doubt or disagreement between the officer and someone that is being questioned, is, that the officer will call for the precinct or sector supervisor, usually a Sergeant, to come and assist or advice.

    You do not want to be that officer that makes a stupid or unfounded arrest, so, they are going to get to the bottom of it right there and then.

    Or, you could just carry a Glock and a Happy Stick avoiding it all together
    So pretty much what I said in post #3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    Honestly I think it's one of those mountain out of a molehill type issues.

    Could happen....maybe. Worst case is probably you end up taking a trip down to the station where someone can use google. Most likely the officer will get on the radio, call back to the desk folks who either know the deal or are capable of using Google to sort it out.
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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    So pretty much what I said in post #3?
    Sorry Chuck, you called it. I didn’t read all the posts.
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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The thing is, that people get offended if someone has another opinion of their toys, which, IMO is all an AR pistol is.

    Sure, it’s kind of neat, makes a fun range gun, but like the Scout Rifle, is a niche gun.

    Yeah, I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree, but I have enough practical experience to apply a little critical thinking here and see that the cons are greater than the pro’s for just about every practical application.

    Its kind of like the Judge or S&W Governor; neither fish nor fowl.

    Jack of all trades and Master of none:)
    I'm glad to see someone besides myself exercising critical thinking about this without him being accused of making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Wait a minute, you even stated a AR pistol was a toy and niche gun and still didn't get accused of making a mountain out of a molehill. Cool!

    I was taught in engineering school to consider all the possibilities, evaluate, and then make a decision. I guess that was in the Mountain/Molehill chapter. 'Course that was reinforced at numerous SD schools I attended as well.

    And just for the record, having to go to the station to resolve something is not something I want to experience - it just might consume all the time I had available to go to the range and shoot.
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  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I'm glad to see someone besides myself exercising critical thinking about this without him being accused of making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Wait a minute, you even stated a AR pistol was a toy and niche gun and still didn't get accused of making a mountain out of a molehill. Cool!

    I was taught in engineering school to consider all the possibilities, evaluate, and then make a decision. I guess that was in the Mountain/Molehill chapter. 'Course that was reinforced at numerous SD schools I attended as well.

    And just for the record, having to go to the station to resolve something is not something I want to experience - it just might consume all the time I had available to go to the range and shoot.
    I wasn’t keying in on the “ mountain out of a molehill” part, because I do see the potential for issues:)

    Just giving Chuck due credit for bringing up what would likely happen in an LE encounter where there was a question.

    But once again, like you, I see it as a needless situation to have over a firearm with such limited application.
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  12. #86
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    My opinion on AR-15 pistols is they're too big to be a decent handgun, too small to be a decent rifle. They have their niche, I suppose but that niche doesn't work for me well enough to buy one. I'm better off with a Glock 30 and three 10-round mags.
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  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I wasn’t keying in on the “ mountain out of a molehill” part, because I do see the potential for issues:)

    Just giving Chuck due credit for bringing up what would likely happen in an LE encounter where there was a question.

    But once again, like you, I see it as a needless situation to have over a firearm with such limited application.
    I just think sometimes we don't give LEO's enough credit for being able to sort things out on the fly. In my brief LEO stint, 4 years MP, 5 years reserve officer (full time summers while in college) that's exactly what we did with those issues we couldn't sort out on the spot.....called it in and got the required info.

    To me, the OPs initial post smacks of some of the other "internet forum lore" that's never backed up by facts or statistics, such as:

    No mods to your pistol
    Don't use reloaded ammo

    Now I suppose I can add only carry a factory gun and your receipt......

    So no, I'm not offended that someone challenged the suitability of something, in this case the AR pistol. In fact I don't even own one, factory or built. My issue was with the original title, which BTW had nothing whatsoever to due with suitability of the AR pistol, but was titled; "The AR pistol: why it's better to buy one instead of building one...".

    In the original post, the decision to carry an AR15 pistol had been made........the question was factory or home built and the "potential" repercussions due to a LEO contact making the factory option "better"..

    Which I disagree with because having dealt with LEOs previously I've got a pretty firm belief that even IF the officer involved isn't knowledgeable in the ATF rulings it will get sorted out prior to my doing time.......

    As far as that whole "food for thought" thing goes, it's called a discussion and that incurs differing opinions. Just because some guys don't agree, doesn't mean they've taken offense, it just means they don't agree.
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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    I just think sometimes we don't give LEO's enough credit for being able to sort things out on the fly.
    It has nothing to do with LEO credit, it has to do with making their job easier, clearer, and cleaner and de-complicating something before it starts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...To me, the OPs initial post smacks of some of the other "internet forum lore" that's never backed up by facts or statistics, such as:

    No mods to your pistol
    Don't use reloaded ammo

    Now I suppose I can add only carry a factory gun and your receipt......
    Not once did I say it was wrong, or shouldn't be done. I simply pointed out some things that are worthy of consideration. Lumping me in with other internet issues is kinda making a mountain out of a molehill isn't it? At best it's stereotyping me as a typical internet persona. Should I stereotype you as an internet "judge first" and sort out later? Well, I won't do that because I have too much respect for you.

    And just so you'll know, if you were to read my posts on the subject of gun mods, you would quickly see I have ALWAYS supported mods, especially trigger mods and even debated the issue at length, including remarks that Gunsite of which I am an alumni many times over, also support trigger mods. If you watch any of my YouTube videos you will clearly see I do trigger mods from Ghost connectors to full custom trigger bars and connectors.

    For pity sakes Chuck - if you look in my ARs or even read my posts, you would know most of my ARs have Geissele National Match triggers in them. I personally tune them to my preferences, which includes bending the trigger spring to adjust the stage 1 pull.

    So before you lump me in with all the things you don't like and misjudge me, maybe you should know the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ....My issue was with the original title, which BTW had nothing whatsoever to due with suitability of the AR pistol, but was titled; "The AR pistol: why it's better to buy one instead of building one...".
    It was an opinion, just like Glockman10mm's opinion about the AR pistol. I offered an opinion and consideration about which version might be simpler to deal with in certain situations. And let's note here that Gockman10mm agreed with me about the issues of the buy/build in two of his posts not to mention Rock and Glock's kind and encouraging comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...In the original post, the decision to carry an AR15 pistol had been made........the question was factory or home built and the "potential" repercussions due to a LEO contact making the factory option "better"..
    Yeah, heaven forbid anyone express such a thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...Which I disagree with because having dealt with LEOs previously I've got a pretty firm belief that even IF the officer involved isn't knowledgeable in the ATF rulings it will get sorted out prior to my doing time.......
    And others, not me, have expressed the opposite experience with LEO. Whatever the case though, there is nothing mountainous about expressing thoughts that might make life easier on both the LEO and person.

    And I should have as much freedom to express my thoughts about buy or build as you do to express your opinions. But, it is unnecessary and uncalled for you to assume the worst of me, lump me in with undesirable internet personas, treat me as such and make condescending comments directed at me because of your misjudgement of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    ...As far as that whole "food for thought" thing goes, it's called a discussion and that incurs differing opinions. Just because some guys don't agree, doesn't mean they've taken offense, it just means they don't agree.
    You need to reread some posts Chuck, there were some that took some offense. I don't claim deep offense, certainly not, but some.

    And yes, one of the outcomes of food for thought is to generate discussion including differing opinions. You say that like it's a bad thing.

    Would you be satisfied if I agree not to post any more of my opinions?

    Or maybe you can admit that you misjudged me and my post and reacted to me in error due to previous internet personas you don't like?
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    You said: "For example if that "pistol" lower ever had a rifle/carbine buffer tube installed on it, it would no longer be a pistol and could never be a pistol again in the eyes of the law. ".

    This is not accurate.

    An AR pistol CAN become a rifle and converted back IF it was registered as a PISTOL from the start...AN AR which was registered from the get go as a rifle CAN NOT be converted to a pistol. Once a rifle, ALWAYS a rifle.


    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...stols-at-home/

    AR-15 Pistols ? Clearing Up Some Misconceptions | Jerking the Trigger


    Where you'd LEGALLY run into trouble with the law is if you had a rifle/carbine buffer tube and shoulder stock on a Pistol lower while STILL keeping a barrel of less than 16 inches on it.

    That would then be considered an SBR.

    Now I admit I didn't read through the entire thread so someone else may have already posted the same thing.

  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strmwatch View Post
    You said: "For example if that "pistol" lower ever had a rifle/carbine buffer tube installed on it, it would no longer be a pistol and could never be a pistol again in the eyes of the law. ".

    This is not accurate.

    An AR pistol CAN become a rifle and converted back IF it was registered as a PISTOL from the start...AN AR which was registered from the get go as a rifle CAN NOT be converted to a pistol. Once a rifle, ALWAYS a rifle.


    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...stols-at-home/

    AR-15 Pistols ? Clearing Up Some Misconceptions | Jerking the Trigger


    Where you'd LEGALLY run into trouble with the law is if you had a rifle/carbine buffer tube and shoulder stock on a Pistol lower while STILL keeping a barrel of less than 16 inches on it.

    That would then be considered an SBR.

    Now I admit I didn't read through the entire thread so someone else may have already posted the same thing.
    I agree with that. What I was really thinking about is the lowers I've personally bought. Mine were not denoted as a pistol. So what I said with regard to my lowers and I'd venture to say most people that buy lowers are in the same boat, they likely don't have pistol lowers, hence they can not be converted back and forth.

    It would probably be a good idea to have all lowers checked on the 4473 as a pistol - you get more flexibility that way.
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