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Reloading: and shooting - I certainly got the New Year off to a great start!

Thread: Reloading: and shooting - I certainly got the New Year off to a great start!

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  1. Tangle's Avatar

    Tangle said:

    Reloading: and shooting - I certainly got the New Year off to a great start!

    Went out to the range yesterday with my 10.5" SBR to shoot a 3x10 ladder (it really isn't a ladder, by definition but I don't know what else to call it) using Nosler 70 gr RDF bullets - WOW!

    I've been wanting to find a bullet that my 10.5" SBR would really like - MAYBE I have. Accuracy was not only better, it was far more consistent across the charges. Funny thing is though the SDs weren't as good as they have been.

    Anyway, here's a short video featuring the Seekins Precision 10.5" heavy barrel SBR and the ATN x sight 4k Pro 5-20 scope in action.

    Just a word or two about this very unique scope. It is a camera system configured as a scope. The front of the "scope" contains a 4k image sensor. The rear of the scope contains an LCD display. There is not optical path through the scope! Zoom is pure digital so image quality does suffer a bit. You can record video through the built in recorder or take pics. You can bluetooth link a rangefinder to the scope and when you range, the rangefinder sends the distance to the scope. The integral Applied Ballistics calculator determines the drop for the specific load and adjusts the reticle accordingly. You simple range, put the reticle on the target and shoot. There are many other features I won't go into here.

    All the target video is coming from the scope. ALL audio is coming from the scope's video recorder.

    Got a host of great groups - gonna do it again tomorrow for confirmation.

    Notice at the end where the MOAs are posted with each target, how many groups are sub-MOA and how many are near 1/2 MOA. I'm liking this bullet!

    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
    in Gun Free Zones.
     
  2. CG11's Avatar

    CG11 said:
    That's some good shooting, Tangle. Looks like you had a great range day!
    So who is this Will that everybody fires at, what did he do, and how come he's not dead yet??
     
  3. BlackJack's Avatar

    BlackJack said:
    Awesome shooting! Looks like you found the load that this rifle likes.

    It is interesting that your best group seems to have the largest SD.
     
  4. Tangle's Avatar

    Tangle said:
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackJack View Post
    Awesome shooting! Looks like you found the load that this rifle likes.
    Thanks much! I'm about to head to the range in just a few, to shoot the same load and see if I get similar results.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackJack View Post
    ...It is interesting that your best group seems to have the largest SD.
    That is interesting isn't it! I see that commonly. @gasmitty also commented in another thread about not seeing a correlation between accuracy and SDs.

    It almost seems random, I see best accuracy with low SDs, worst accuracy with low SDs, and everything in between. I would not have expected that.
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
    in Gun Free Zones.
     
  5. BlackJack's Avatar

    BlackJack said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That is interesting isn't it! I see that commonly. @gasmitty also commented in another thread about not seeing a correlation between accuracy and SDs.

    It almost seems random, I see best accuracy with low SDs, worst accuracy with low SDs, and everything in between. I would not have expected that.

    Yup, although I would have thought that it would make a difference across all distances, my "gut feeling" is that the SD probably doesn't make that much difference until you get out to longer ranges where the difference in velocity makes a bigger difference in bullet drop.
     
  6. Tangle's Avatar

    Tangle said:
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackJack View Post
    Yup, although I would have thought that it would make a difference across all distances, my "gut feeling" is that the SD probably doesn't make that much difference until you get out to longer ranges where the difference in velocity makes a bigger difference in bullet drop.
    Yep! you're gut is exactly right.
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
    in Gun Free Zones.
     
  7. Sticks's Avatar

    Sticks said:
    Well done. Wish my first 2019 reloading day had been half that good.

    Thank you for posting the ATN scope video. What magnification were you at ?

    Edited typo
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep
     
  8. Tangle's Avatar

    Tangle said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Well done. Wish my first 2019 reloading day had been half that good.
    We do have good days and, well...not so good days. I'm sure next time will be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    ...Thank you for posting the XTN scope video. What magnification were you at ?
    Well, it was quite preliminary. I'll have to do a more in-depth video before long. I barely scratched the surface. The big thing, for me anyway, is the ability to use the ATN rangefinder with the ATN's built-in Applied Ballistics Calculator to automatically adjust the reticle for holdover based on the current load data.

    I was using the scope the other day and noticed it was giving me wind speed and direction. I didn't know it could/would do that! Of course it would have to be wind at the scope, still that's better than not knowing at all.

    I was at 20x (max) in the video. I'll be comparing it to a good, high quality scope, i.e. Bushnell Elite Tactical DMRII 3.5-21X50. I know the ATN can't possibly match the optic quality of that scope and I don't expect it too, but it will give me a good feel for how much clarity it gives up. I suspect the ATN is as good or better than lower cost hunting scopes, and with the ranging feature - it just may be the cat's meow - or the end of it
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
    in Gun Free Zones.
     
  9. Sticks's Avatar

    Sticks said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    We do have good days and, well...not so good days. I'm sure next time will be better.


    Well, it was quite preliminary. I'll have to do a more in-depth video before long. I barely scratched the surface. The big thing, for me anyway, is the ability to use the ATN rangefinder with the ATN's built-in Applied Ballistics Calculator to automatically adjust the reticle for holdover based on the current load data.

    I was using the scope the other day and noticed it was giving me wind speed and direction. I didn't know it could/would do that! Of course it would have to be wind at the scope, still that's better than not knowing at all.

    I was at 20x (max) in the video. I'll be comparing it to a good, high quality scope, i.e. Bushnell Elite Tactical DMRII 3.5-21X50. I know the ATN can't possibly match the optic quality of that scope and I don't expect it too, but it will give me a good feel for how much clarity it gives up. I suspect the ATN is as good or better than lower cost hunting scopes, and with the ranging feature - it just may be the cat's meow - or the end of it
    Another 3 or 4 years and I suspect we will see a larger variety of vendors offering this type of optic, and the quality should improve.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep
     
  10. G26Raven's Avatar

    G26Raven said:
    Looks like a very nice rifle and set-up you have there!
    If something is important enough, you will find a way. If it's not, you will find an excuse.

    If you are asked to be the hero, be the hero.
     
  11. Tangle's Avatar

    Tangle said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Another 3 or 4 years and I suspect we will see a larger variety of vendors offering this type of optic, and the quality should improve.
    I think you're right.

    ATN uses pretty much the highest definition currently available - 4K. I'm sure as the technology introduces higher definitions, these types of scopes will really start to shine, hmmm, is that a pun?

    Even now, there is a big difference in clarity at 10x and 20x because the ATN uses only digital zoom. "Zooming" a 4k by a factor of 4x makes the definition suffer. I expect adding an optical zoom is out of the question due to the added expense, weight, and length required.

    As it stands now, I believe this scope would be fine for most hunting and shooting applications with the exception being ranges beyond say 300 yards.

    I may have a trip coming up in the next couple of weeks to my favorite 500 yard range - I'll for sure see how it does at that range!
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
    in Gun Free Zones.
     
  12. Tangle's Avatar

    Tangle said:
    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    Looks like a very nice rifle and set-up you have there!
    Yeah, I'm really liking it now that I've found a load that works well, and has promise out to 300 yards @ 600 ft-lbs and remains supersonic to about 850 yards.

    Because of the "full" barrel profile, it's not as light as one might think, but it's not bad. That upper is only about 4-5 oz heavier than a DD 10.3" gov profile, so considering the additional rigidity, stability as it heats up, and recoil taming of the Seekins heavy barrel, it's a pretty good setup.
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
    in Gun Free Zones.
     
  13. G26Raven's Avatar

    G26Raven said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Yeah, I'm really liking it now that I've found a load that works well, and has promise out to 300 yards @ 600 ft-lbs and remains supersonic to about 850 yards.

    Because of the "full" barrel profile, it's not as light as one might think, but it's not bad. That upper is only about 4-5 oz heavier than a DD 10.3" gov profile, so considering the additional rigidity, stability as it heats up, and recoil taming of the Seekins heavy barrel, it's a pretty good setup.
    I've got a heavy barrel on my Remington 7mm-08 and it has made all the difference in the world in its accuracy. A little bit heavy to carry for hunting, but definitely not unbearable.
    If something is important enough, you will find a way. If it's not, you will find an excuse.

    If you are asked to be the hero, be the hero.
     
  14. graydude's Avatar

    graydude said:
    A similar graph done for accuracy of vertical spread only vs SD may show the effect on drop. Would be interesting to see.

    What seems evident in the accuracy graph is something other than SD is affecting accuracy overall. The two curves are not correlated. As charges increase up the ladder there's a steady increase in accuracy, then the curve starts to oscillate and the oscillation increases amplitude with increasing charge.

    So a reliable stopping point for charge may be where the oscillation starts, or, with a bit of work it may be possible to narrow in on a point where the oscillation dips. The key is whether the oscillation pattern is repeatable or if it's going to generate "flyers."

    Could the action be starting to cycle a little early at the higher charges? Or maybe starting to see barrel harmonics at the higher charges? @Tangle , you're definitely beyond my expertise when I stopped loading my own.

    It's an interesting contrast between this and some of the muzzleloading stuff I'm doing. Muzzleloading is of course handloading, just done on the spot. As I've been working on loads I've had guys comment on my use of weighed charges and suggest I just use an old fashioned volume measure. I just politely accept the friendly advice, and move on as it's not worth arguing.

    Hopefully none of our comments are similar to telling you to just go back and use a volume thrown charge and call it good!
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth
     
  15. Tangle's Avatar

    Tangle said:
    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    A similar graph done for accuracy of vertical spread only vs SD may show the effect on drop. Would be interesting to see.

    What seems evident in the accuracy graph is something other than SD is affecting accuracy overall. The two curves are not correlated. As charges increase up the ladder there's a steady increase in accuracy, then the curve starts to oscillate and the oscillation increases amplitude with increasing charge.

    So a reliable stopping point for charge may be where the oscillation starts, or, with a bit of work it may be possible to narrow in on a point where the oscillation dips. The key is whether the oscillation pattern is repeatable or if it's going to generate "flyers."

    Could the action be starting to cycle a little early at the higher charges? Or maybe starting to see barrel harmonics at the higher charges? @Tangle , you're definitely beyond my expertise when I stopped loading my own.

    It's an interesting contrast between this and some of the muzzleloading stuff I'm doing. Muzzleloading is of course handloading, just done on the spot. As I've been working on loads I've had guys comment on my use of weighed charges and suggest I just use an old fashioned volume measure. I just politely accept the friendly advice, and move on as it's not worth arguing.

    Hopefully none of our comments are similar to telling you to just go back and use a volume thrown charge and call it good!
    I think it's barrel harmonics, but it could be the barrel harmonics are affected significantly by the bolt unlocking.

    I suppose one could have tight velocities coming out of the barrel at the wrong time which could open the group. Although it's all kind of an unknown phenomenon, to me logic seems to suggest if the bullets leave the barrel at the same time due to being very close to the same velocity, they should hit in a tight group.

    Conversely, why would bullets of higher velocity variations produce some of the tightest groups???

    While I'm am approaching the throwing powder phase, the reason I'm double measuring right now is to reduce powder variations as much as possible in order to compare subsequent tests of the same load ranges. If I used a throw, I'd have no way to really know how much variation is due to powder variation and how much is other variables.

    By the way, here's that graph you mentioned would be interesting.



    It shows the change in POI due to velocity variations at different ranges.
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
    in Gun Free Zones.