First AR pistol build - Page 2

First AR pistol build

This is a discussion on First AR pistol build within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Nmuskier @ Havok a link earlier has one of those gadgets that you put your Glock or M&P pistol into to have ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    @Havok a link earlier has one of those gadgets that you put your Glock or M&P pistol into to have a stock. Fun, but doesn't really gain anything in my eyes. If we're adding OAL with a stock, I want barrel length (velocity). I agree that PCC is only cool factor, except where legal restrictions apply.

    The advantage of a pistol AR over SBR is wait time, stamp cost, transport, and states where there are "pistol" permits vs. firearm or weapon permits. For example, I can transport a loaded AR pistol, but not a loaded SBR.

    I don't know that there is a way to have an "SBR upper". There are uppers that make a pistol lower a firearm. Vertical fore grip will make a pistol an NFA item. An SBR can have a side folding stock, etc... Going with an SBR lower certainly avoids these types of restrictions, but I suppose that is what you pay for.
    Ahh, now I see the link for the Micro Roni. I wouldn't mind having one of those for fun. But I can see why people wouldn't like them.

    When I said SBR upper, I was talking about the short barrel uppers I have for my SBR. Not necessarily a legally classified SBR upper. Sorry for the confusion there.

    Aside from a vertical grip, the idea that someone can own a firearm that is functionally identical to an SBR, but not have to bribe the government, and be able to keep it loaded in their vehicle is appealing to a lot of people. I have a stripped lower, and one day when Im done being lazy, I will probably build it into a "pistol" lower.
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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    This is why I keep coming back. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

    A friend picked up a PSA Marauder 7.5" 223 that I got to see this morning. Definitely not going to go that short. It felt awkward to me. That with the loss of velocity is a deal breaker for me.
    He also has a 10.5" 223 and humored me by taking the accessories off except for the RDS. It actually handled pretty well without all the extras hanging on it.

    Am going to see if I can find a 300BO in a short barrel I can shoot before I make a decision on an upper.

    I've been using a G17 with a brace this past year with good results except for longer distances. One handed shooting is very doable for me. Point shooting with the brace tucked in the crook of my elbow and for sighted fire I shoulder the brace pulling it in tight with one hand while still stabilized by the cane in my left hand.
    It is different on the range than a running coyote. The 9mm does well out to 50 yards or so. Longer ranges require a flatter (faster) shooting cartridge for me to be effective.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    A friend has a 10.5" AR pistol in 223 that I have shot. It is a little difficult to use one handed. It is front heavy. That is why I was thinking the 7.5" might work better for me, but not if it loses effectiveness.
    With one hand occupied by the cane, I'm looking for working options that won't break my budget.

    I've used the G17 with an Endo brace and had good results out to 50-60 yards. Beyond that, I want a rifle for better effectiveness.
    Look at a KelTec CMR30.

    .22WMR will do just fine on a coyote out to 150 or so yards, and I’ve found that the CMR’s have acceptable accuracy.

    A lot less front heavy than an AR, to boot...and .22WMR is going to be moving about as fast as .223 out of a 7.5” barrel.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Ahh, now I see the link for the Micro Roni. I wouldn't mind having one of those for fun. But I can see why people wouldn't like them.

    When I said SBR upper, I was talking about the short barrel uppers I have for my SBR. Not necessarily a legally classified SBR upper. Sorry for the confusion there.

    Aside from a vertical grip, the idea that someone can own a firearm that is functionally identical to an SBR, but not have to bribe the government, and be able to keep it loaded in their vehicle is appealing to a lot of people. I have a stripped lower, and one day when Im done being lazy, I will probably build it into a "pistol" lower.
    The only negative I've found with the MCK (descendant of the Micro Roni) is that you cannot use an extended barrel. i contacted them and suggested that such a modification to the MCK would make it a much more useful piece of gear. Mine fits Glock 20 or 21 models (slim frame). I have a 6 inch barrel for the 20 that makes the 10mm a good deal more potent, but alas, they say it won't work. I suppose some day I'll try to see if it will go through the MCK barrel shroud.

    The shroud is larger than the outside diameter of the barrel, so it might work. The MCK has two positives that make it more effective than the pistol alone. First, it gives a much better hand hold without any problems associated with grip on the pistol alone. And second, it provides a much improved sight base making a red dot easy to install. I use a set of MagPul MBUS and a Vortex Venom.

    I used to be a fair pistol shot, but 100 yards was always a stretch - even with an uber modified 1911. The MCK makes it super simple to place all your shots where you want them at 100 yards and even beyond. Mrs OldChap and other members of my family are far more accurate than with the pistol alone.

    The brace folds to the side making a package small enough to easily fit in a medium sized computer bag for carry. If I can work out the long barrel issue, it will be even more useful.
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Grizzly2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    This is why I keep coming back. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

    A friend picked up a PSA Marauder 7.5" 223 that I got to see this morning. Definitely not going to go that short. It felt awkward to me. That with the loss of velocity is a deal breaker for me.
    He also has a 10.5" 223 and humored me by taking the accessories off except for the RDS. It actually handled pretty well without all the extras hanging on it.

    Am going to see if I can find a 300BO in a short barrel I can shoot before I make a decision on an upper.

    I've been using a G17 with a brace this past year with good results except for longer distances. One handed shooting is very doable for me. Point shooting with the brace tucked in the crook of my elbow and for sighted fire I shoulder the brace pulling it in tight with one hand while still stabilized by the cane in my left hand.
    It is different on the range than a running coyote. The 9mm does well out to 50 yards or so. Longer ranges require a flatter (faster) shooting cartridge for me to be effective.
    When Illinois legalized handgun hunting for deer in the 90's I bought a Ruger Hunter and scoped it. Then I asked the boys on the farm to cut me a walking stick with a fork in the top of it. I've used that ever since; even with my in line rifle. If out in the open with no trees to rest against, I've put the rifle in the fork of the walking stick and it steadies well enough for an accurate standing shot. Sitting, I'd extend the stick out and was still able to steady the handgun for a shot, resting it in the fork. I wonder if that wouldn't also work for you and this AR pistol better than a cane.

    At times I'll use a cane also, but on broken ground I much prefer a walking stick. They are great for pulling yourself up hills and banks. I just picked up a commercial one for walks around the neighborhood but it doesn't have a fork on top.

    Actually, even without a fork I would think you could rest the pistol on the offhand holding the walking stick to steady the handgun. Maybe experiment with a shovel handle or broomstick or something.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Chuck808's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Being a "pistol" is nothing more than a legal classification.
    I think this is a thing that people often forget. Ive seen people showing off their "pistols". I see a few Glocks, a HK, some revolver of some sort, some old milsurp Makarov, a couple 22lrs, etc, then an AR pistol and an AK pistol. Just because the ATF calls them pistols doesnt make it so. If it has a brace thing on it, its a rifle, the ATF is just too stupid to realize it. I have a 4" barreled Scorpion EVO with a folding Tailhook brace. Its a rifle. Sure, the ATF says its a pistol, and thats fine, because now I can conceal it in a bag and transport it across state lines without having to notify anyone. Kind of works out in my favor. Of course the optimal situation would be dissolving the entire NFA, but whatever. As for how this related to OPs post, no AR is ever going to be small/light enough to shoot well one handed. It is a rifle. Even my Scorpion, with no brace, no silencer, no red dot, no anything but a loaded 30rd mag, is entirely too heavy to shoot one handed with any sort of success. SBRs with pistol braces that the ATF calls "pistols" are not and never were designed to be fired with one hand.

    If you absolutely had to have something that could be shouldered and fired with one hand effectively, Id think something like a B&T TP9 might be closer, but thats still not great. Its still only 9mm, and with a stock/brace and a loaded mag and optic, its around 4.5lbs, and thats heavy. You would have an easier time pointing and firing a Glock 20 with a single hand. Now if you used the TP9 as designed, where it fits in a drop leg rig, and is designed to be taken out and fired off the shoulder as a machine gun, thats a different story. It is designed to be small and relatively light for a shoulder fired weapon so you can fire one handed in an emergency situation.

    Its just that if youre looking for a weapon that is effectively to be fired with a single hand, you want a traditional handgun.
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    Thanks Grizzly2,

    I've used a walking staff in the past, but gave it up with the carpal tunnel flared up. Dr says that the side stress on my wrist caused inflammation because the wrist is not designed to bear weight from the side.
    You are correct that it works great as a shooting rest.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck808 View Post
    I think this is a thing that people often forget. Ive seen people showing off their "pistols". I see a few Glocks, a HK, some revolver of some sort, some old milsurp Makarov, a couple 22lrs, etc, then an AR pistol and an AK pistol. Just because the ATF calls them pistols doesnt make it so. If it has a brace thing on it, its a rifle, the ATF is just too stupid to realize it. I have a 4" barreled Scorpion EVO with a folding Tailhook brace. Its a rifle. Sure, the ATF says its a pistol, and thats fine, because now I can conceal it in a bag and transport it across state lines without having to notify anyone. Kind of works out in my favor. Of course the optimal situation would be dissolving the entire NFA, but whatever. As for how this related to OPs post, no AR is ever going to be small/light enough to shoot well one handed. It is a rifle. Even my Scorpion, with no brace, no silencer, no red dot, no anything but a loaded 30rd mag, is entirely too heavy to shoot one handed with any sort of success. SBRs with pistol braces that the ATF calls "pistols" are not and never were designed to be fired with one hand.

    If you absolutely had to have something that could be shouldered and fired with one hand effectively, Id think something like a B&T TP9 might be closer, but thats still not great. Its still only 9mm, and with a stock/brace and a loaded mag and optic, its around 4.5lbs, and thats heavy. You would have an easier time pointing and firing a Glock 20 with a single hand. Now if you used the TP9 as designed, where it fits in a drop leg rig, and is designed to be taken out and fired off the shoulder as a machine gun, thats a different story. It is designed to be small and relatively light for a shoulder fired weapon so you can fire one handed in an emergency situation.

    Its just that if youre looking for a weapon that is effectively to be fired with a single hand, you want a traditional handgun.
    I sure hope you never decide to run for public office. As far as I'm concerned, when an unelected bureaucracy decides to institute policies and call them laws with consequent penalties, they're just begging to have all their budgetary requirements cut to zero. I don't care what they call it, the ATF should be moved to the peanut gallery along with quite a few other "agencies."

    I suppose I'm feeling particularly revolutionary today.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I sure hope you never decide to run for public office. As far as I'm concerned, when an unelected bureaucracy decides to institute policies and call them laws with consequent penalties, they're just begging to have all their budgetary requirements cut to zero. I don't care what they call it, the ATF should be moved to the peanut gallery along with quite a few other "agencies."

    I suppose I'm feeling particularly revolutionary today.
    The point is that people get hung up on the terms “pistol” and “rifle” and ignore that two guns placed side by side that are functionally identical, but one individual piece that is named/marketed differently changes whether it’s a pistol or rifle, yet the gun is used exactly the same.

    The fact that for 7 years the ATF thought a shoe lace was a machine gun did not actually mean that a shoe lace was anything more than a shoe lace. The ATF is stupid, but reality is what it is when it comes to the shoe lace.
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Chuck808's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I sure hope you never decide to run for public office. As far as I'm concerned, when an unelected bureaucracy decides to institute policies and call them laws with consequent penalties, they're just begging to have all their budgetary requirements cut to zero. I don't care what they call it, the ATF should be moved to the peanut gallery along with quite a few other "agencies."

    I suppose I'm feeling particularly revolutionary today.
    Thats a shame, because if I were President, my first piece of legislation would be to repeal the NFA and GCA. Good luck with your candidate though.

    The point Im making is that the ATF calling an AR15 with a 10.5" barrel a "pistol" because it has a stock with a velcro strap that can theoretically be strapped to your arm, doesnt make it a handgun. Its a rifle with a stupid brace thing instead of a buttstock that allows to skirt unconstitutional laws. The ATF can call it a pistol all they want, and I will take advantage of whatever current decision they make as a workaround to any laws they have, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck. Its no different than when people put a stock on a Glock. It is still a pistol, its just a pistol with a shoulder stock. It isnt a rifle.

    We need to stop letting the ATF tell us what things are through their incoherent interpretations and definitions of things. Sure, I will use those interpretations against them when I can in order to carry what is functionally a SBR across state lines with no approval from them, because they want to call it a pistol and say its ok, but theres no way Im going to say an 10" AR pistol is morwe equivalent to a Glock than a 16" AR rifle.
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck808 View Post
    Thats a shame, because if I were President, my first piece of legislation would be to repeal the NFA and GCA. Good luck with your candidate though.

    The point Im making is that the ATF calling an AR15 with a 10.5" barrel a "pistol" because it has a stock with a velcro strap that can theoretically be strapped to your arm, doesnt make it a handgun. Its a rifle with a stupid brace thing instead of a buttstock that allows to skirt unconstitutional laws. The ATF can call it a pistol all they want, and I will take advantage of whatever current decision they make as a workaround to any laws they have, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck. Its no different than when people put a stock on a Glock. It is still a pistol, its just a pistol with a shoulder stock. It isnt a rifle.

    We need to stop letting the ATF tell us what things are through their incoherent interpretations and definitions of things. Sure, I will use those interpretations against them when I can in order to carry what is functionally a SBR across state lines with no approval from them, because they want to call it a pistol and say its ok, but theres no way Im going to say an 10" AR pistol is morwe equivalent to a Glock than a 16" AR rifle.
    I suspect we are saying the same thing.

    As things currently stand, the ridiculous ATF classifies a firearm with less than a 16" barrel and an adjustable stock as a Short Barreled Rifle which, for some reason, is so dangerous that it requires federal registration like a full auto machine gun. (Actually I suspect the REAL reason is because they get to collect taxes, but that is neither here nor there)

    A firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches and a fixed length brace is classified as a pistol. Who knows why? BUT...if it has a vertical foregrip, it is a taxable item. In the case of an AR, it may not have ever been assembled with a barrel of 16 inches or more PRIOR to being assembled with a barrel less than 16 inches long. I suppose the goons at the ATF think they can waterboard a lower receiver and get it to confess!

    A firearm with a barrel 16 inches or longer with an adjustable length stock, a vertical foregrip, which is not equipped with a full auto trigger group, is simply a rifle. Such a firearm is also known as a "horrible, destructive, weapon of war" in the media. In reality, anything that even resembles such a firearm gets the same classification by law enforcement spokespersons, politicians, and the media.

    I have yet to understand why the Constitution continues to define such media types as "journalists" and why anybody of sound mind continues to listen to anything they have to say about any subject beyond elementary shoe lacing.

    And brother @Chuck808 I have no problem voting for you based on your stated platform. I just support putting all these leeches in bureaucratic agencies into a real job, like sweeping up after horses in a parade. I'm currently investigating to make sure I didn't get up on the wrong side of the bed today. I have no mercy or patience left.

    AND I really get my dander up during these discussions! Who could tell?
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  13. #27
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    I own many PDW's. Several caliber's and barrel length's. They vary from 5" (.45 acp Kriss Vector) to 10.5" AR pistol in 5.56. The primary "go to" gun is an AR pistol in 5.56 with 7.5" barrel for a "bump in the night". With the layout of my home, (confining conditions & some OTHER factors) I want the shortest barrel feasible. Something to think about, IF it's a "specialty use" firearm. Yes, I'm aware of running this short a barrel in 5.56 may not be what "SOME" want. I've been around gun's from the beginning of the AR's inception. MY choice.
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  14. #28
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    Even though I just picked up a 10.5" AR it will be a secondary weapon close to me about the house, but I will always have one of my 40s on me (P229 w/12 155 gr Gold dots on board at the moment) the AR is for investigating what the dog is barking at or why my motion sensors kicked on the lights, it give me an option of superior fire power if I have some warning....the pistol on my side gives me instant defense if the door is kicked in with no warning at all,
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackpackHunter View Post
    I am shooting the Black Hills 77gr TMK that is designed to fragment. You are more than welcome to look up the specs on it. In addition to my own testing, there have been numerous tests posted on various forums including AR15.

    Esse quam videri
    Is this it?
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...n-5-56mm-ammo/

    2500fps out of a 14.5" barrel.
    Polymer ballistic tip to aid expansion, not fragmentation.
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  16. #30
    Member Array BackpackHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    Is this it?
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...n-5-56mm-ammo/

    2500fps out of a 14.5" barrel.
    Polymer ballistic tip to aid expansion, not fragmentation.
    That is the bullet. I have not seen that article before. I'm not sure if you read it, but it does mention that the polymer tip aids in fragmenting at least three or four times. What may have been mentioned there, or it may have been in another article is that they put the polymer tip on there to ensure reliable fragmentation at lower velocities. There are quite a few folks out there that have posted their tests with a 10.5" barrel. Someone from Black Hills (I can't remember the name right now) answered a ton of questions on AR15 right around its release several years ago.

    Esse quam videri

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