Should Guns Be Permitted on College Campuses? - Page 20

Should Guns Be Permitted on College Campuses?

This is a discussion on Should Guns Be Permitted on College Campuses? within the Featured Topics forums, part of the Welcome To DefensiveCarry.com category; Originally Posted by JoeLiberty Thankfully, campus carry laws (at least the ones I've seen, apparently you've seen different ones) do not change the restrictions on ...

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Thread: Should Guns Be Permitted on College Campuses?

  1. #286
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeLiberty View Post
    Thankfully, campus carry laws (at least the ones I've seen, apparently you've seen different ones) do not change the restrictions on carrying while intoxicated, nor do they change the age requirement for obtaining a permit. Nobody is arguing that we should let people who are drunk and/or high carry a gun. That will remain as illegal as ever. Some people seem to be arguing about whether anyone 18+ should be able to keep a gun in their dorm room. That is really a separate (yet valid) discussion, and should not be conflated with restrictions on the activities of CHP holders (the OP specifically refers to concealed handguns in classrooms). Permit holders are not "kids" they are 21 year old adults who take their safety seriously . Imagine for a moment a student is 21+, living off campus, possibly working while furthering education as some of the members here, having jumped through the legal hoops to obtain a permit, having carried almost everywhere he or she goes for months or years... Is there any good reason that such a person should be forbidden from carrying when they go to class? I can't think of one.
    I agree with all you said. However you did not mention the minds of the college kids today. I was in college back in the late 60s and on through the mid 70s. Alcohol was not allowed on campus but we brought it in and was really good at hiding it. We cooled it off using fire extinguishers and would not tell on others for deploying the extinguishers. We were not supposed to be out of the dorms after 11pm but we got around that as well. We were not to have cars in the Freshman year but we brought ours and would pay those living near campus to allow our cars to stay at their place.

    Many colleges are party places. LA Tech, not so much. LSUBR, constant on-going. Right now, without guns on campuses, police are called to serious incidents involving instruments other than guns but there are calls about students with guns on campuses. Then there are the shots fired calls and brandishing calls involving students off campuses across the country.

    Look at the arrests records of athletes for violence, DUI and such. Think of how many instances there would be with firearms if campus carry is allowed when they do it now at a time when guns are not allowed.

    Do not get me wrong. There ARE many great young people at colleges across the US that do not get in trouble and abide by the rules. However, the homicide and rape rates on campuses is extremely low. Most of the issues with students happen off campus. Now do we arm 5% of those on campus to prevent .00002% of incidents but create the potential for more issues from students that do not follow the rules pertaining to firearms? Once the can is opened, the lid cannot be replaced.
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    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

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  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    I agree with all you said. However you did not mention the minds of the college kids today. I was in college back in the late 60s and on through the mid 70s. Alcohol was not allowed on campus but we brought it in and was really good at hiding it. We cooled it off using fire extinguishers and would not tell on others for deploying the extinguishers. We were not supposed to be out of the dorms after 11pm but we got around that as well. We were not to have cars in the Freshman year but we brought ours and would pay those living near campus to allow our cars to stay at their place.
    This is ironic. You are in favor of a rule/law that is in no more effective than the one that you simply chose to ignore when you were in college. You either choose to follow it, or you dont. Its not the people who follow the rules that are the concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Many colleges are party places. LA Tech, not so much. LSUBR, constant on-going. Right now, without guns on campuses, police are called to serious incidents involving instruments other than guns but there are calls about students with guns on campuses. Then there are the shots fired calls and brandishing calls involving students off campuses across the country.
    Why is it worse if its on campus or in an apartment? Or we can apply the same logic to a college campus that we apply everywhere else. We all pretty much agree that if more people carry, criminals will be less likely to prey on someone when they think they will get shot. When the one college student brandishes a gun to show how tough he is, usually hes going to expect the other people to be unarmed, because thats what the rule says. If the guy thought the 5 other people around him were armed, hed probably leave the gun out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Look at the arrests records of athletes for violence, DUI and such. Think of how many instances there would be with firearms if campus carry is allowed when they do it now at a time when guns are not allowed.
    So wouldnt we just be safer if we banned all guns. If we could just save one life, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Do not get me wrong. There ARE many great young people at colleges across the US that do not get in trouble and abide by the rules. However, the homicide and rape rates on campuses is extremely low. Most of the issues with students happen off campus. Now do we arm 5% of those on campus to prevent .00002% of incidents but create the potential for more issues from students that do not follow the rules pertaining to firearms? Once the can is opened, the lid cannot be replaced.
    Yes, we do. We all carry to protect ourselves from the .00002% chance of being a victim, and we all know its rare, but we still carry because there is a chance of it happening. If we only planned for what was likely, none of us would carry at all. Why should college be treated differently.
    a poor plan that is well executed will produce better results that a good plan that is poorly executed.

    This is America. I have the right to go places. You have the right to stay home. You have the right to be upset about me going places. I have the right to not care.

  3. #288
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Well, I know you are not in law enforcement.

    If campus carry is allowed, sit back and watch what happens. I assure you it will not be good.

    I would love for everyone to carry. So why do we not do so? Because not everybody should be allowed to carry. Wisdom with both you and I did not come in our early years.

    Do you have access to the past years actions taken against LA permit holders? If so, you might find the revocations, suspensions and such interesting as to age and reasons. I have the books since 1996 and each pretty much is like another when it comes to percentages of the youthful carriers.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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  5. #289
    Senior Member Array jackrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Well, I know you are not in law enforcement.

    If campus carry is allowed, sit back and watch what happens. I assure you it will not be good.
    Explain to me then, how we haven't seen the "assured" bloodbath in Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Mississippi, Oregon, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin. All states that allow carry on campus, and Tennessee allows staff to do so. And these aren't recent changes (TN and TX notwithstanding). Colorado has allowed campus carry for over a decade, and we haven't seen the drunk or stoned kid shooting himself or anybody else, really.

    The argument against campus carry comes down to location alone; after all, if they're not allowed to carry off campus, they're not allowed to carry on campus in any jurisdiction. So the idea that simply crossing the borders of a property makes it somehow more dangerous - I can't see that.
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  6. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Well, I know you are not in law enforcement.

    If campus carry is allowed, sit back and watch what happens. I assure you it will not be good.

    I would love for everyone to carry. So why do we not do so? Because not everybody should be allowed to carry. Wisdom with both you and I did not come in our early years.

    Do you have access to the past years actions taken against LA permit holders? If so, you might find the revocations, suspensions and such interesting as to age and reasons. I have the books since 1996 and each pretty much is like another when it comes to percentages of the youthful carriers.
    I live in Texas where campus carry is allowed and it hasnt been a problem.
    a poor plan that is well executed will produce better results that a good plan that is poorly executed.

    This is America. I have the right to go places. You have the right to stay home. You have the right to be upset about me going places. I have the right to not care.

  7. #291
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Sorry guys but there have been problems. Unless it is a mass shooting or public shooting, it is not going to make the media.

    One man pulling a gun on another student or shooting wildly on campus will be handled on paperwork and by mostly campus police. Law enforcement sees it.

    Take the avg size city, three will likely be 3-4 shootings overnight. You never here of them unless it is a fatal. Right now, in a city of 125,000 there are three shots fired calls on 911 and it is mid afternoon.

    College students, not the majority though, get into trouble on campus very often. Off campus, more often. Sadly it often ruins their lives for a long time to come.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

  8. #292
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    https://www.buzzfeed.com/tamerragrif...knD#.dwePe6QRL

    Boyfriend shot, killed Texas A&M student, College Station...

    http://6abc.com/news/student-found-d...house/1478505/

    Well in three minutes I found three homicides in TX this year and I did not have to look hard and I did not get all of them. There were several where students were arrested for firearm violations, mostly off campus.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

  9. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Sorry guys but there have been problems. Unless it is a mass shooting or public shooting, it is not going to make the media.

    One man pulling a gun on another student or shooting wildly on campus will be handled on paperwork and by mostly campus police. Law enforcement sees it.

    Take the avg size city, three will likely be 3-4 shootings overnight. You never here of them unless it is a fatal. Right now, in a city of 125,000 there are three shots fired calls on 911 and it is mid afternoon.

    College students, not the majority though, get into trouble on campus very often. Off campus, more often. Sadly it often ruins their lives for a long time to come.
    Ive seen more news stories than I can count of a single person shooting another single person over the years, both on and off college campuses. How often is there national news coverage when someone slams a door on a college campus and someone thinks it MUST be gun shots? How often is there news coverage when someone brings a gun to a high school campus, and never fires a single shot, or even threatens anyone with it? We have all seen all of these happen many times. The real reason there is no covereage is because the problems that they currently have were also occurring before the passage of the law.
    GuyFromHuntsvil likes this.
    a poor plan that is well executed will produce better results that a good plan that is poorly executed.

    This is America. I have the right to go places. You have the right to stay home. You have the right to be upset about me going places. I have the right to not care.

  10. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/tamerragrif...knD#.dwePe6QRL

    Boyfriend shot, killed Texas A&M student, College Station...

    http://6abc.com/news/student-found-d...house/1478505/

    Well in three minutes I found three homicides in TX this year and I did not have to look hard and I did not get all of them. There were several where students were arrested for firearm violations, mostly off campus.
    In three minutes you found 2 stories of shootings that didnt occur on campus, and one person who died of an overdose. None of which have anything to do with allowing guns on campus, or concealed carry permits.
    a poor plan that is well executed will produce better results that a good plan that is poorly executed.

    This is America. I have the right to go places. You have the right to stay home. You have the right to be upset about me going places. I have the right to not care.

  11. #295
    Member Array JoeLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Well, I know you are not in law enforcement.

    If campus carry is allowed, sit back and watch what happens. I assure you it will not be good.

    I would love for everyone to carry. So why do we not do so? Because not everybody should be allowed to carry. Wisdom with both you and I did not come in our early years.

    Do you have access to the past years actions taken against LA permit holders? If so, you might find the revocations, suspensions and such interesting as to age and reasons. I have the books since 1996 and each pretty much is like another when it comes to percentages of the youthful carriers.
    The three deaths cited are not related to CHP holders at all. In fact, one was a murder occurring very close to campus of a college student by someone else. If anything that's an argument for campus carry right there. There is no point to designating an area where no one can carry a weapon, if you don't have enough security to ensure everyone is disarmed. You are just making a big barrel of helpless fish for a lunatic to shoot into. But, if just a few "well qualified" fish are armed, it's not so easy.
    "Wisdom", huh? Seems like your argument is not really about campus at all, you just don't think young people should carry. You might be able to debate that, but it's a people problem, not a location problem. You dodged my question before, and since you think CHP holders must meet some imaginary 'wisdom' requirement, I'll reframe it: A 65 year old veteran ex-police visits his grand-daughter on campus. Why should he not be allowed to do so with a concealed weapon?
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  12. #296
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeLiberty View Post
    The three deaths cited are not related to CHP holders at all. In fact, one was a murder occurring very close to campus of a college student by someone else. If anything that's an argument for campus carry right there. There is no point to designating an area where no one can carry a weapon, if you don't have enough security to ensure everyone is disarmed. You are just making a big barrel of helpless fish for a lunatic to shoot into. But, if just a few "well qualified" fish are armed, it's not so easy.
    "Wisdom", huh? Seems like your argument is not really about campus at all, you just don't think young people should carry. You might be able to debate that, but it's a people problem, not a location problem. You dodged my question before, and since you think CHP holders must meet some imaginary 'wisdom' requirement, I'll reframe it: A 65 year old veteran ex-police visits his grand-daughter on campus. Why should he not be allowed to do so with a concealed weapon?
    Again, you are correct. However they show how readily and willingly younger people are willing to use a gun to settle arguments. Add alcohol to the mix and it becomes even faster. Also I am not saying it does not happen with older people because it does but only less often

    I previously suggested getting a copy of your states revocation and suspension causes to see what age group has the highest rate of permit loss. Since nobody has posted the percentages from their state, I assume nobody has taken the time to look them up but maintain their opinion based only on personal feelings.

    As those here that know me will attest, I am narrow minded, very opinionated and have to be. My work has me reconstructing crime and accident scenes. It is easy to see who did what but the cause and the way it happened is well past who did it. I testify as to the root cause and effects of people's actions and am often called in court to testify as to emotional percentages for various groups. There are things that law enforcement and a few others know. Bars popular with college age youth will have far more fights and injuries than does places more frequented by the more mature adults. The younger the driver, the more apt to have a DUI. Noting personal against either group but one often lacks wisdom. A person under 24 yrs of age is far less interested in consequences than someone just 10 yrs older. College age, not just college students are far more likely to use a firearm if one is available, even if they are not involved in the disturbance. Additionally, the better grades a college student has, the less apt they are to get into some type of trouble but far more apt to get in between those that have in an effort to become peace maker. They are also likely to get hurt in the process.

    Colleges have full time police officers for a reason. They are needed often and respond faster than the area law enforcement.

    I had three daughters. All three finished college. The eldest with great grades and only had two incidents during seven years, both involved traffic accidents on campus. One was where an intoxicated student ran into her car and the other was a simple rear end impact in which she was struck. The next made marginal grades, partied all the time and was often in trouble. She was arrested twice in four years of college and sadly died a few yrs after college due to the lifestyle she developed during college. The youngest, also degreed with great grades, went to college some 10-14 yrs after the other two. Three in just one of her classes were arrested for drugs on campus, another she knew went to jail for stabbing someone on campus. This daughter, now professionally employed with nice salary, had four non fault accidents at college which totaled two of her cars,all involving other students and none her fault. She now has a concealed carry permit but while shooting with me as she grew up and very familiar with firearms felt it best to not have one until she was older and away from the college crowd. While I disagree with her choice of carry weapon, I respect the wisdom she showed as she went through college. I also asked her about campus carry a couple days ago. She said she would hate to know she was in class with someone carrying a firearm.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

  13. #297
    VIP Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Now for the nay sayers. I went back and pulled up the first year I came to in my records, which was 2012. Now consider that the youngest permit holder must be 21 yrs of age. That year, the age group from 21-29 yrs of age that held permits represented some 15% of all permits issued yet some 20.7% of ALL ages whose permits were revoked, suspended or such were in that 15% group. Removal of permit privileges were due to substance abuse, wrongful use of a firearm, criminal conviction and such.

    I do not know about the group here but that is a very high percentage of youth losing permital rights. When one out of five permit holders losing the right should say something to all of us.

    Nor am I saying any of those in 2012 were students and certainly any that may have been should not have carried on campus. Nor do I know how many were under say 27 yrs of age because I do not have access to that information

    I want it understood as well that I am not against that age group being issued permits. They should be. If they misuse their permit or firearm, then the laws can deal with them. All I am saying is the college age group is a high risk group to be allowed to carry on campus. I would support faculty doing or other adult workers having the right to carry.

    Yet I want each of those supporting campus carry by the student body to examine the shootings in your individual communities and see how many are done by those under 24 yrs of age. Those same people went to school some place, maybe not college but maybe so. Maybe they were in a gang or associated with gang members while in college but a massive amount of shootings are done by those 17-24 yrs of age.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

  14. #298
    Member Array JoeLiberty's Avatar
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    Ok, so you are for people age 21-29 being issued permits. That's good. And you are for some people being able to carry on campus. That's good too. But you are against college-age people carrying on college campus. Because you fear the college-attending, CHP-holding, gang-banger?? That's an interesting position.
    Also "one in five" permit holders did not lose the right to carry. How many licenses were issued compared to the number revoked? Permit holders are an insanely law-abiding group of people. Even more so than police, according to some research:
    CPRC in Fox News: Police are extremely Law-abiding, but concealed handgun permit holders are even more so - Crime Prevention Research CenterCrime Prevention Research Center
    #sorry-not-sorry

  15. #299
    Member Array JoeLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Maybe they were in a gang or associated with gang members while in college...
    In the words of my generation... LOL, Wut?
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  16. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    Now for the nay sayers. I went back and pulled up the first year I came to in my records, which was 2012. Now consider that the youngest permit holder must be 21 yrs of age. That year, the age group from 21-29 yrs of age that held permits represented some 15% of all permits issued yet some 20.7% of ALL ages whose permits were revoked, suspended or such were in that 15% group. Removal of permit privileges were due to substance abuse, wrongful use of a firearm, criminal conviction and such.

    I do not know about the group here but that is a very high percentage of youth losing permital rights. When one out of five permit holders losing the right should say something to all of us.

    Nor am I saying any of those in 2012 were students and certainly any that may have been should not have carried on campus. Nor do I know how many were under say 27 yrs of age because I do not have access to that information

    I want it understood as well that I am not against that age group being issued permits. They should be. If they misuse their permit or firearm, then the laws can deal with them. All I am saying is the college age group is a high risk group to be allowed to carry on campus. I would support faculty doing or other adult workers having the right to carry.

    Yet I want each of those supporting campus carry by the student body to examine the shootings in your individual communities and see how many are done by those under 24 yrs of age. Those same people went to school some place, maybe not college but maybe so. Maybe they were in a gang or associated with gang members while in college but a massive amount of shootings are done by those 17-24 yrs of age.
    You said that age group represented 20% of permits that were revoked, not that 20% of that age groups permits were revoked. So, in order to support your argument, you need to present data showing how many permits there are in that age group, how many were revoked, and the total number of permits revoked. Otherwise, for all any of us know, there could be 5000 people in that age group with permits, and in 2012, 5 people had their permits revoked, and one of those people was in the 21-29 age group.
    a poor plan that is well executed will produce better results that a good plan that is poorly executed.

    This is America. I have the right to go places. You have the right to stay home. You have the right to be upset about me going places. I have the right to not care.

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