Just a Comment

Just a Comment

This is a discussion on Just a Comment within the Forum News, Feedback, Problems & Comments forums, part of the DefensiveCarry.com Forum Office category; One of the "hot button" issues for us here is politics. In my 7 decades of life, what my government (ie politicians) has done has ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Just a Comment

    One of the "hot button" issues for us here is politics.

    In my 7 decades of life, what my government (ie politicians) has done has not really affected me personally, one way or the other. My tax rate, regulations, perhaps, but my way of life goes on day to day.

    Yet, since I am a gun owner and some "politicians" (and the very word brings the bile to my lips) have chosen to threaten all gun owners - meaning they are directly threatening ME and my way of life, it seems I must occasionally dabble in the vile world of politics. Not because I love to argue such things, but because my life, and more importantly the lives of my family, are now under attack. Fortunately it is still just words.

    Which brings me to the point. For DC to be a place for gun owners, it seems inevitable that we delve deeper and deeper into the world of politics in regard to what seems to be insane "politicians" who see nothing wrong in attacking and threatening us - law abiding Americans.

    I pray for all the admins and mods. You have a very difficult task holding the strong opinions in check. Please know that some of us long for the day when this all settles down.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    In general, the forum will allow political Second Amendment discussion as long as it remains civil. After all, gun laws and 2A are political in nature. Where they quickly step in is when non-2A related posts/comments are made. I have no objection with that.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
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    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  3. #3
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    A comment on your comment seems called for. I agree with what you wrote lock stock, and barrel, but I have to add my own thoughts. We ought not speak of "insane" politicians. Insanity applies to abnormal behavior od mental patterns. Yes, I know we all think we know 'crazy" when we see it, but it is still a very generalized term.

    We have to counter politicians who have have distorted logic, which is an error in judgement but not crazy. Labeling a person's position as "crazy" does nothing to change the minds of people who think that person is correct. I offer this example. A politician posits that "black rifles" are more deadly than other firearms so to assure that they are not used by criminals and mentally challenged people those rifles must be banned. The popular rebuttal by angry law abiding gun owners is that the politician is crazy and does not get it. Well that might feel good, but it will never change an anti gun person's opinion.

    Instead, the best reaction would be to clearly lay out facts. About 250 people have been killed this year with 'black rifles" and by less than a dozen shooters. There are several million 'law abiding" owners of such rifles. Therefore banning or confiscating such rifles defies logic. It is akin to taking many people's drivers licenses way because some drivers commit vehicular homocide. we are dealing with failures of logic not craziness. Some of those perceived failures are driven by advocates who have illogical agendas. For example, believing that the best way to prevent criminal behavior by people with guns is to take guns away from this who own guns who do not engage in criminal behavior. I have advanced my pro-gun advocacy to people by showing the illogical positions of anti gun advocates. I never call them crazy. I just point out why their positions are simply illogical.

    On the other hand we have to avoid being illogical. The unwavering opposition by some to universal background checks is hurting us. The average person believes that the way to reduce gun related crime is to stop people who should not have guns from getting them. However, opposition to UBCs is mostly based upon the fear that there will be injustices. Yes, there will be just like some people are failed in drivers license tests but should not have been. It is not a perfect world and it never will be. The problem is that when gun owners will not even entertain UBCs it appears illogical to the majority of Americans. That deteriorates our position because appearances matter.

    We are engaged in a battle of logical perception, and we might be losing because we defend our stance on the basis of Rights while most people are not moved bt that in the same way they re moved by logical argument. No doubt some will think what I write is "crazy."
    OldChap, rotorhead1026 and kukla like this.
    "You don't hurt them if you don't hit them." Lt. Gen. Lewis "Chesty" Puller, USMC Retired

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  5. #4
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    A comment on your comment seems called for. I agree with what you wrote lock stock, and barrel, but I have to add my own thoughts. We ought not speak of "insane" politicians. Insanity applies to abnormal behavior od mental patterns. Yes, I know we all think we know 'crazy" when we see it, but it is still a very generalized term.
    I understand what you're saying brother. All I can say is that you should have worn a badge for a while. You learn pretty quickly to spot insane people - or you don't come home at night.

    You also learn pretty quickly that not even so-called "mental health professionals" can recognize insane people until they discover to their horror that they were too late in diagnosing it.

    I'm also curious what word you would use to define someone who makes a statement carried by every media outlet in the country that, "I will come to your door and collect your guns by force"? And he makes it over and over and over. Crazy? Off balance? Disturbed? Agitated? Unreasonable? Ill-advised? In my book insane is the mildest term I can find for such behavior. And trust me, I have met insane before.

    The sage says the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I think he qualifies.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    The anti gun agenda is driven by emotion and is fueled by sensationalistic media coverage intended to fan the flames of fear, anger, and outrage. Using facts and logic only appears to the emotion driven as being cold and uncaring for the victims.

    Logic and facts are not effective in convincing those who are emotion driven and the logical/factual argument is lost the instant someone says "I feel..... " or "Guns scare me." because you are talking to someone who's world runs on feelings with facts and logic be damned.

    Now if a pro gun argument based entirely on feelings can be found..............
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

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    Distinguished Member Array Shootnlead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    The anti gun agenda is driven by emotion and is fueled by sensationalistic media coverage intended to fan the flames of fear, anger, and outrage. Using facts and logic only appears to the emotion driven as being cold and uncaring for the victims.

    Logic and facts are not effective in convincing those who are emotion driven and the logical/factual argument is lost the instant someone says "I feel..... " or "Guns scare me." because you are talking to someone who's world runs on feelings with facts and logic be damned.

    Now if a pro gun argument based entirely on feelings can be found..............
    The only place emotion factors into the anti-gun agenda is on the public side...there is something very different driving the agenda with politicians.
    “The everyday man who holsters a handgun for come-what-may eventualities cannot improve on a .44 Special revolver.” Skeeter Skelton

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I'm also curious what word you would use to define someone who makes a statement carried by every media outlet in the country that, "I will come to your door and collect your guns by force"? And he makes it over and over and over. Crazy? Off balance? Disturbed? Agitated? Unreasonable? Ill-advised? In my book insane is the mildest term I can find for such behavior. And trust me, I have met insane before.
    I do trust you OldChap. There is wisdom in much that you say. As for the Texas Tantrum Toit who speaks as you have cited, I think I have to agree he is "crazy" in that he not only defies logic but actually has illusions that defy reality> I think that means he is delusional, and that is a kind of "crazy."

    I never had the. inclination to be a LEO, but, if I had been, I would have been proud to have served with you. So from one crazy to another crazy, good call.
    OldChap, ETXhiker and kukla like this.
    "You don't hurt them if you don't hit them." Lt. Gen. Lewis "Chesty" Puller, USMC Retired

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  9. #8
    Senior Member Array BCC73's Avatar
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    Power and domination is a key factor with all this Craziness !!!!!
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    I have the Right to remain silent....just NOT the ability !!!
    Carry Safe & Train hard !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    On the other hand we have to avoid being illogical. The unwavering opposition by some to universal background checks is hurting us. The average person believes that the way to reduce gun related crime is to stop people who should not have guns from getting them. However, opposition to UBCs is mostly based upon the fear that there will be injustices. Yes, there will be just like some people are failed in drivers license tests but should not have been. It is not a perfect world and it never will be. The problem is that when gun owners will not even entertain UBCs it appears illogical to the majority of Americans. That deteriorates our position because appearances matter.

    We are engaged in a battle of logical perception, and we might be losing because we defend our stance on the basis of Rights while most people are not moved bt that in the same way they re moved by logical argument. No doubt some will think what I write is "crazy."
    Your logical argument took a detour with the above paragraph. Unwavering opposition to UBCs is NOT illogical. What is lacking is a clear explanation of why so many gun owners are opposed to UBCs. We see it as simpy another infringement on our rights, more costs for exercising those rights, the creation of a data base of individuals and their associated legal possessions, more intrusion by big government into our privacy, and the biggest reason being UBCs will do nothing to keep criminals from getting guns. In fact, even the FBI acknowledges almost all guns possessed by criminals are obtained from theft, the black market, or strawman sales. Restricting honest citizens in their constitutional rights has zero impact on reducing gun violence. There is simply no logical path from UBCs to gun violence reduction.

    We need to do a better job of educating the "average" person as to the fallacious assumption UBCs reduce gun violence, not to give the anti-gun coaltion more "concessions". My dad used to say if you give them an inch, they'll eventually take a mile. Way too many concessions have already been made to no effect on criminals but at great cost to legal gun owners.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton

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    Distinguished Member Array Shootnlead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCC73 View Post
    Power and domination is a key factor with all this Craziness !!!!!
    It is all about power!

    They are hellbent to force us to live the way they want us to live.
    BCC73, Bikenut, OldChap and 3 others like this.
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    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    I must say here that the trick is to walk the tightrope...balancing not discussing "politics" but discussing issues affecting us that are related to the activities of politicians whose only goal is power and control - and the unlimited acquisition of personal wealth.

    And we must do all that and still remain friends. I think that is the best medicine that may be poured on the epidemic of hatred sweeping this country.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  13. #12
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    Hello,

    If supported by the moderator team, and a portion of the members, we can make an area of the forum to hold these discussions of a political nature. It is up to posters to uphold the forum rules in all the sections, specifically:

    "2. While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts or PMs. Trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are strictly prohibited. You are welcome to disagree with opinions other than your own, but flaming other members will not be allowed. If you can't figure out how to compose a post without it being confrontational or a personal attack on someone, simply bite your lip and don't post it.
    If you have a crappy attitude please leave it at the door before you enter!

    Is this something you would like me to bring forward to the mod team?

    -Gerrit

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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    UBCs are always wrong because BCs are wrong. They do not keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them and they are a necessary step to confiscation. We should be proposing things that do work, not appeasing the ignorant by showing some support for their misbegotten ideas.
    • Instead of UBCs with the NICS system, have UBCs with the BIDS system or a blanket firearms purchase clearance that lasts for a period of time. But the system must not record actual sales data!
    • Instead of Red Flag laws, use the involuntary commitment laws that every state already has. It takes the potentially dangerous person off the street so they can get help.
    • Get rid of Gun Free Zones. That's where all the mass shooting occur. Make every potential mass shooter worry they may meet deadly resistance. Yes, they may plan to die anyway, but they want a body count of helpless victims before they do, not return fire.
    • Get news outlets to stop publicizing the names and backgrounds of mass shooters. They can get the media to not publish the names of minors, they can do that with mass shooters also.
    • If someone is convicted of murder or aggravated assault, they do a long sentence without parole. The most likely person to commit a violent crime is someone who has already committed one. Every year you keep someone like that off the street is a year he can't offend again.
    • Use RICO or some similar laws to go after drug gangs, hard. Treat them like terrorists, lock them up, take their money. Make what they are doing unattractive.
    • Teach kids about guns in school. Teach them about safety and what to do if you find one.
    • Harden likely mass shooting sites with physical security, armed personnel and training for the occupants.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    And we must do all that and still remain friends. I think that is the best medicine that may be poured on the epidemic of hatred sweeping this country.
    Does that mean I have to like you? If so, I ain't playing . . . and I'm taking my ball with me!
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Does that mean I have to like you? If so, I ain't playing . . . and I'm taking my ball with me!
    Did I ask for a Christmas Card? Did I? Did I??? DID I? DID I?




    (Whew...making that post on 1/4 cup of coffee was exhausting! )
    OldVet, Grizzly2, M1911A1 and 1 others like this.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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