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Hypothetical and question on being muzzled

This is a discussion on Hypothetical and question on being muzzled within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; My feeling is you you can't fix stupid. Take the latest video of that women or the video posted a while back of those two ...

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Thread: Hypothetical and question on being muzzled

  1. #76
    Distinguished Member Array riverrambler's Avatar
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    My feeling is you you can't fix stupid. Take the latest video of that women or the video posted a while back of those two idiots taking selfies at the gun range. I don't believe a training class will change their habits one bit. They may well comply with gun safety in class and to pass the test but as soon as they get their license or permits they will quickly revert to being stupid because that is who they are. I think that mandatory classes just raises the price of a license by a $100.00 or a $150.00 and very little gain to show for it, but I have to pay for their mistakes.
    That woman in the video knows there is a round in the chamber yet points the gun at herself, fingers inside the trigger gaurd. There is no cure for that. Far more deadly than gun mishandling are every day car drivers. Most of them have had classes and instruction and all of them have had to pass written and driving tests. It hasn't fixed their stupid one bit.
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  2. #77
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    One cannot draw valid conclusions from extreme, unrealistic hypotheticals. I could create a hypothetical, "What if gun ownership, or carry, absolutely did have a direct correlation to violent crime? the facts would not be in question. For every additional person who buys, or carries, a gun there is an additional murder, in every state, without exception. Would that make you more open to gun control?" Then to anyone who said yes, then I could say, "So it's just a numbers game for you." To anyone who said no, I could say, "So you are willing to see that many additional people die."

    Extreme, unrealistic hypotheticals are no-win and prove nothing. Answering them puts you in a losing situation every time. So nothing I say in the rest of this post indicates anything about what I am, or am not, willing to accept. I'm just playing this hypothetical "game" for the sake of argument.

    My thoughts on the hypothetical are:
    • I am never in favor of additional infringements on 2A and mandatory training is in that category.
    • I don't think a lack of training is the main problem with muzzling. It is carelessness, stupidity, thinking one is better than the rules. You can't train that away. So mandatory training would not work.
    • I am in favor of system safety. That means engineering additional safety into a device that provides a safety edge. You cannot completely eliminate stupidity or create systems that account for all stupid actions. But I prefer guns that are less likely to go off when I don't want them to than ones that are more likely to do so. I go overboard on the safety rules, but I also realize that I am fallible, as is everyone else, I don't care how much training they've had.
    • I am for more public safety education and communication. Again, it does not eliminate carelessness or stupidity, but I think being reminded of good practices from time to time helps. That was my experience when I worked in the aviation safety business.
    • I have seen muzzling in NRA sponsored handgun classes, infractions I reported to the instructor/RSO and nothing was done. If you can't get the problem solved there, where can you?
    • As a nuclear weapons loading officer, in charge of weapons loading operations, I've been muzzled by M-16s held by Marines on the security perimeter. On one occasion, I called over MARDET CO and pointed out to him we were both being muzzled at that very moment. He did have words with the offending Marine, but it was lackluster and he should not have let it happened to begin with. In another, similar muzzing situation, the Marine had the safety clicked off and and his finger on the trigger. A Senior Chief Ordnanceman saw it yelled at the Marine and put him on report. I think Marines have the requisite training, so training was not the problem.

    How to stop muzzling? If that were an easy answer, we would have eliminated it already. As the saying goes, "You can't fix stupid." You want an extreme, unrealistic, hypothetical answer? When someone muzzles and shoots someone, the RSO or the cops immediately shoot them. If it is found they have reproduced, the cops go and take out the kids. Eventually the gene pool will readjust. Won't happen, can't happen, shouldn't happen, but it is on the same level as the original hypothetical.
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  3. #78
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmc View Post
    How much training is required to remove ignorance, there will always be some careless person that points their gun at you. I will never overlook such actions and never let it be known its stupid. the last time this happened was when a person comes into a gun shop ,draws the gun and is waving around a room with others present. After the lecture he got he may be more careful about what he does with his pistol. I don't see how this can be prevented.
    Again, it's not about training, it's about a simple 1 hour safety course giving the novice information that's necessary to remain safe around others while handling firearms. Clearly, from having been behind the counter of an ffl for 15 years, there's more who don't know about the 4 safety rules than do on the customer side of the counter. Educating them in basic safety isn't training, per se, like actually firing a gun.
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  5. #79
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrambler View Post
    My feeling is you you can't fix stupid. Take the latest video of that women or the video posted a while back of those two idiots taking selfies at the gun range. I don't believe a training class will change their habits one bit. They may well comply with gun safety in class and to pass the test but as soon as they get their license or permits they will quickly revert to being stupid because that is who they are. I think that mandatory classes just raises the price of a license by a $100.00 or a $150.00 and very little gain to show for it, but I have to pay for their mistakes.
    That woman in the video knows there is a round in the chamber yet points the gun at herself, fingers inside the trigger gaurd. There is no cure for that. Far more deadly than gun mishandling are every day car drivers. Most of them have had classes and instruction and all of them have had to pass written and driving tests. It hasn't fixed their stupid one bit.
    Yes there is, IF she's never heard or learned the 4 rules of safe gun handling. An educated carrier is less dangerous than some idiot who says it's their right to carry and just straps a gun on like this dimwitted female without a clue about gun safety,.
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  6. #80
    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Again, it's not about training, it's about a simple 1 hour safety course giving the novice information that's necessary to remain safe around others while handling firearms. Clearly, from having been behind the counter of an ffl for 15 years, there's more who don't know about the 4 safety rules than do on the customer side of the counter. Educating them in basic safety isn't training, per se, like actually firing a gun.

    When a one hour safety course didn't work, then they'll tell them what kind of holster, what kind of gun, what kind of ammo, how the gun must be secured...it will never stop. Crime isn't solved/reduced by most laws, neither is safety increased by most laws. Those who get the Federal pamphlet, or the state notice, on kids/guns safety laws, and a gun lock with the gun, either read and incorporate them, or don't. They either use the lock, or don't.

    I think a MUCH better way to accomplish the desired results is for the LEOS to teach EddieEagle-type classes...in the school, clubs, churches, anywhere they can get a group together...and teach handling safety (as the group is old enough to handle them). Education that hits thousands will reach a lot more than a law that scoff-laws will ignore, anyways. Perfect? No, it's not perfect either.
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  7. #81
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    When a one hour safety course didn't work, then they'll tell them what kind of holster, what kind of gun, what kind of ammo, how the gun must be secured...it will never stop. Crime isn't solved/reduced by most laws, neither is safety increased by most laws. Those who get the Federal pamphlet, or the state notice, on kids/guns safety laws, and a gun lock with the gun, either read and incorporate them, or don't. They either use the lock, or don't.

    I think a MUCH better way to accomplish the desired results is for the LEOS to teach EddieEagle-type classes...in the school, clubs, churches, anywhere they can get a group together...and teach handling safety (as the group is old enough to handle them). Education that hits thousands will reach a lot more than a law that scoff-laws will ignore, anyways. Perfect? No, it's not perfect either.
    Yup, on another gun board, the consensus has been teach safe gun handling in the schools, Jr. high and above. Then the gov isn't directly involved, but keep in mind, schools are governed by govs themselves, just not the feds.
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  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    Yup...can't escape that fact...which is why Eddie Eagle isn't being taught to a lot more kids.
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  9. #83
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    The high-end LGS near me requires that you watch a pretty good safety video, about 15 minutes, and answer a few questions on gun safety to use the range. You get a card that lasts for a year. If they did something similar in order for you to buy a gun, it might be effective.
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  10. #84
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    See, here and another forums members, discussing this issue of training or a 1 hour safety awareness course has given all of us several ways to educate the general public on safe gun handling rules most here are quite familiar with.

    Thus the thread has been productive in getting people to think of ways to at least alleviate the issues many uneducated gun carriers suffer from [ a lack of knowledge on gun safety rules that everyone should be aware of of carrying/handling guns around others.

    I knew the members here would find an equitable solution that workable without having to interject gov. All it took was a thread like this to get people to put their thinking caps on about a situation that occurs far too often every day in the U.S.
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  11. #85
    VIP Member Array ColoradoDiablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    An educated carrier is less dangerous than some idiot who says it's their right to carry and just straps a gun on like this dimwitted female without a clue about gun safety,.
    It's not the uneducated/untrained idiot that says it is their right to carry, it's that darned pesky 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution. That idiot is simply exercising his or her right.
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  12. #86
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoDiablo View Post
    It's not the uneducated/untrained idiot that says it is their right to carry, it's that darned pesky 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution. That idiot is simply exercising his or her right.
    In a manner that threatens everyone around them. I don't suffer fools very well, and neither should ANYONE suffer from an idiot handling a firearm recklessly. 2A or no, they don't have the right to endanger others recklessly. 2A doesn't give anyone the right to be unsafe around others. Play that card, "well it's my right to carry a gun" and you'll be told you also have the right to be shot if you're endangering me with abhorrent behavior with a deadly weapon.

    Take your 2a right somewhere else if you're going to be unsafe in my present AO.

    YOUR 2A rights end where my safety begins. Don't like it, play nice. Don't play nice, you may get shot for exercising your 2A in a reckless manner. IOW, you have a 2A right that doesn't trump my right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

    "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect.
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  13. #87
    Distinguished Member Array Novarider's Avatar
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    Absolutely not. You would be giving them another route for gun control. 1 hour mandatory training turns into 3 hours then 5 then 8. Next it would be required yearly. Then the fee would increase to the point only wealthy could afford it.

    We shouldn't even have carry permits. We should have constitutional carry country wide.
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  14. #88
    VIP Member Array ColoradoDiablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    In a manner that threatens everyone around them. I don't suffer fools very well, and neither should ANYONE suffer from an idiot handling a firearm recklessly. 2A or no, they don't have the right to endanger others recklessly. 2A doesn't give anyone the right to be unsafe around others. Play hat card, "well it's my right to carry a gun" and you'll be told you also have the right to be shot if you're endangering me with abhorrent behavior with a deadly weapon.

    Take your 2a right somewhere else if you're going to be unsafe in my present AO.

    YOUR 2A rights end where my safety begins. Don't like it, play nice. Don't play nice, you may get shot for exercising your 2A in a reckless manner. IOW, you have a 2A right that doesn't trump my right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"
    You can feel that way and act that way and I don't blame you. I'm simply pointing out that the 2A right isn't conditioned on your feelings and concerns.
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  15. #89
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoDiablo View Post
    You can feel that way and act that way and I don't blame you. I'm simply pointing out that the 2A right isn't conditioned on your feelings and concerns.
    It most certainly IS conditioned on the founders conditions enumerated as "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect.

    YOUR 2A right end where my right to life, liberty begins.
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  16. #90
    VIP Member Array ColoradoDiablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    It most certainly IS conditioned on the founders conditions enumerated as "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect
    You're conflating the preamble with the actual rights enumerated by the articles and amendments. The preamble sets the stage for the government and rights fo the people but only the Articles and the Amendments confer them.

    The 2nd Amendment grants the right to keep and bear arms and does NOT condition it on education and training. The government, in its implementation of protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is suppose to set forth laws that might condition the actual use of a firearm but not the ability to carry and keep them (brandishing, discharging within city limits for other than self-defense, etc...).
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