What can you tell me about this old gun? - Page 2

What can you tell me about this old gun?

This is a discussion on What can you tell me about this old gun? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by PAcanis Well how 'bout that? There is a stamping on it. I just took the gun out of its sock to measure ...

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  1. #16
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    Well how 'bout that? There is a stamping on it.
    I just took the gun out of its sock to measure the barrel, which is a gradual taper from 1.30 to 1.280, and the lock has a stamp on it. I should have noticed it in the pic.
    It says Warren & Steele Albany.

    A quick Google pulled up some of the guns on auction sites. Here is one and you can see the similarities, right down to a similar dog inlay.
    Civil War Antiques (Dave Taylor's) Christmas Webcatalog
    It seems a common date for the ones on auction sites is 1840-1850.
    Did you acquire this one PA? Pretty cool old rifle, bet it's got some stories to tell.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Did you acquire this one PA? Pretty cool old rifle, bet it's got some stories to tell.
    Still in the thinking about it stage.
    It's in pretty rough shape, but maybe not so rough for its age. Still, being that it has the stock repairs from bad wood and a re-lined bore... I'm not sure it's worth it. Not for what I think my friend will want for it. He already told me he has 800 in it. I'm thinking it's more like a $500 rifle. You were in the business. What's your opinion?

    He does have this powder flask he also found with the rifle. For all I know it might be worth as much as the gun itself.
    It's pressed leather.

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  3. #18
    Member Array rainmaker's Avatar
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    Nice rifle. I agree that it looks possible that the lock may be a replacement for another or for a flint lock, as many flinters were converted someplace along the line. Pitting outside the barrel confirms use. The taper seen inside the barrel (assuming it's wider at the muzzle end) may be from use of the ram rod for loading over the years, rubbing the barrel sides. The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association magazine, Muzzle Blasts, has a regular column/article where folks have submitted rifle info/pics for help in identifying. Might try contacting the NMLRA. Just a thought.
    Steve

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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    I'll shoot them an email or call them Monday.
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  6. #20
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    Still in the thinking about it stage.
    It's in pretty rough shape, but maybe not so rough for its age. Still, being that it has the stock repairs from bad wood and a re-lined bore... I'm not sure it's worth it. Not for what I think my friend will want for it. He already told me he has 800 in it. I'm thinking it's more like a $500 rifle. You were in the business. What's your opinion?

    He does have this powder flask he also found with the rifle. For all I know it might be worth as much as the gun itself.
    It's pressed leather.

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    I have no clue, never got into the BP stuff. The measure might be, as you suggest, worth the price of the rifle, even if it's 50% of the value, the rifle might be worth it to get both.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Those measurers are anywhere from 100 to 400.
    I can't find a name on this one, but the Hawksley flasks look just like it.
    It has a patent date of 1872 on it and "drams" on the adjustable spout.

    Of course, if I'm buying it it's to shoot, not collect. It would just be a cool shooter to me.
    I'll have to see what he was thinking.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    I have no idea as to most of the things discussed so far. I do remember seeing, as best I remember, a flyer, or magazine that my dad had advertising kits for muzzle loaders. The magazine IIRC was from the 1930's or so and dad had a bunch of them. I don't even remember the name of the publication. All I remember is that the ad was like those you would see in old magazines that had ads on the last few pages. This wording sounds familiar, but it really has been too many years.

    During the late 1940's, Kirkland, noting that the antique muzzleloaders used by members were invariably in need of springs, screws, and other vital components, began dealing in gun parts. Most were salvaged from junk ... until he discovered better sources, interesting enough, in Belgium.

    By 1954, Kirkland's business had grown so successful that he quit his sales job and established the now well-known Dixie Gun Works. The company's first 12-page catalog offered muzzleloaders a source for scarce, hard-to-find parts for their old guns. Kirkland soon realized that his catalog subscribers wanted to shoot these guns, not just restore them. And so in late 1955 he traveled to Belgium, returning three weeks later with the first prototype of a brand new muzzleloading rifle. The 1956 edition of the Dixie Gun Works catalog listed this .40 caliber "Squirrel Rifle" in flint or percussion ignition for $79.50. It was the first "production" muzzleloader available to American shooters in nearly a century.
    Here is the site I found this. This would be much later than a 1930's era magazine, so I don't really know. But I did see kits long before the ones available today, and they've been on the market for a long time.

    ML-Pioneers - NORTH AMERICA'S NO. 1 MUZZLELOADING WEBSITE!
    Last edited by OldChap; March 30th, 2019 at 03:40 PM.
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  9. #23
    Member Array retired badge 1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    Thanks for the comments.
    I'll take the lock off today, as it is not cocking. My buddy said it was working before he took it to the local gunshop on consignment, so who know what they let happen to it. I had a couple guns "played with" that I had in for work, which is why I know longer go there.

    Anyway, it was totally apart and he didn't see any names other than inside the patch box.

    Oh, and Lancaster is in PA, so yes, strong German influence. Home of the Pennsylvania Dutch.

    I'll measure the barrel. Good tip.
    Two suggestions:

    1. Common to the percussion rifles of that era, the lockwork can become loose over time. Try removing the lock from the stock (remove the retaining screw from the left side of the stock, freeing the lock, lift the hammer to clear the nipple, pull the lock plate free). Then tighten the screws on the interior holding the lockwork in place. Reinstall the lock and check for proper function.

    2. Locks of that time period function differently than modern reproduction pieces (no liability lawyers or ambulance chasers back in the day). With your double-set trigger assembly you may find that you need to pull the rear trigger to set the lock to function, then cock the hammer, then pull the front trigger to fire the rifle. CAUTION ADVISED: Many of these old rifles will readily fire from the half-cock position, so never rely on the half-cock as a safety!!!!!

    OK, you can ask me how I learned these lessons if you like.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    Two suggestions:

    1. Common to the percussion rifles of that era, the lockwork can become loose over time. Try removing the lock from the stock (remove the retaining screw from the left side of the stock, freeing the lock, lift the hammer to clear the nipple, pull the lock plate free). Then tighten the screws on the interior holding the lockwork in place. Reinstall the lock and check for proper function.

    2. Locks of that time period function differently than modern reproduction pieces (no liability lawyers or ambulance chasers back in the day). With your double-set trigger assembly you may find that you need to pull the rear trigger to set the lock to function, then cock the hammer, then pull the front trigger to fire the rifle. CAUTION ADVISED: Many of these old rifles will readily fire from the half-cock position, so never rely on the half-cock as a safety!!!!!

    OK, you can ask me how I learned these lessons if you like.


    Good info.
    I was playing with that lock for probably 1-1/2 hours today off and on.
    Out of the stock I can get it to stop at half-cock and full-cock 95% of the time if I am holding it upright (like you'd be shooting the gun) and once I cleaned it out with brake cleaner and CLP.
    Back in the stock it works 30% of the time and most of that I need to keep a little pressure on the set trigger to get the hammer to lock in two positions.

    The set trigger doesn't appear to do anything. I can drop the hammer (I'm holding it of course) with the front trigger and it always feels very light.
    Nothing is impeding the sear as far as the stock goes, but I'm not liking the way the triggers seem set too deep into the stock. Like the tang screw was reefed on too hard and distorted the trigger group.

    But there's a small tumbler thingy in-between the two trigger bars that sometimes seems to get in the way of the sear catching the notches.

    I don't know. It's my first time trying to play with one of these. Something isn't working right.
    It would be nice to fix it or know what's going on, but since I doubt I'll be keeping it anyway, I'm reluctant to take the whole thing apart. Especially since I don't know what I'm looking for, lol.
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