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Comparing +P+ 9mm to .40 S&W and .357 SIG

Thread: Comparing +P+ 9mm to .40 S&W and .357 SIG

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  1. gasmitty's Avatar

    gasmitty said:
    Quote Originally Posted by flh View Post
    If you would like to make a impressive bang & flash try some "power pistol " with your next reloading
    Amen... talk about "take back the night!"
    Smitty
    AZCDL Life Member
    NRA Patron Member
    NROI Chief Range Officer
     
  2. Gunnie's Avatar

    Gunnie said:
    I find 357 sig to be much more comfortable shooting then 40 S&W. Obviously 9mm with target ammo is the lightest recoiling but for me the 357 sig is certainly shootable and even enjoyable. Itís my preferred carry round
     
  3. hardluk1's Avatar

    hardluk1 said:
    Gunnie HST and ranger t series are a couple of the best performing loads out there even when moving at the slower standard velocity . Depending on your handgun , say a 3" to 3.5" barrel a 9mm 147gr standard pressure test to be better than some hotter loads that just don't work well from a short barrel and the reason speer has short barrel loads with a different bullet design and federal has that odd looking 38sp hst for snubbies . You have to know that none of the typical defensive handgun cartridges is all that as one shot gar O teed man stopper so carry what you can control well and shoot well guickly .

    I tend to carry a 4" class 40sw as my primary carry and have since '91 and find recoil nothing special even with a slow 180gr hst 1000fps load or a 155gr 1300fps load but maybe some like You gunnie are so in tune to felt recoil that you notice the difference . That's not me ! I do see the split time difference and or accuracy /control problems as handgun size gets lighter and smaller and that's when I will change to a 9mm to keep accuracy & time between shots about the same .

    Its good that we have choices .
     
  4. OldChap's Avatar

    OldChap said:
    If I want hot and fast, I just swap out the 40 barrel in my 23 ( or 27) for a G32 barrel and crank up the .357 Sig. Underwood makes the ultimate "flash bang" load I've seen:

    https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785699397689

    @Misty Lu All three of the calibers you mention make for very adequate defensive rounds. I use 124gr standard pressure HSTs in 9mm. I like 135, 155-165, and 180 grain loads for the 40 S&W, and again I mostly run HSTs. My department issued 180gr HSTs in 40 and I witnessed them working with authority of a few occasions. I like the 125 grain loadings for the .357 Sig. In all three of these, I also like the various Underwood loads as well. The major ammunition manufacturers loads are pretty much all effective.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."
     
  5. Misty Lu's Avatar

    Misty Lu said:
    Quote Originally Posted by rx7sig View Post
    Misty Lu,

    You didn't mention the particular .357 Sig (or .40 S&W) ammo you shot. Underwood 125 gr. .357 Sig Gold Dot is full-powered, the real deal, > 1,475 fpm out of a 4" barrel. Most other JHP .357 Sig is ~1,350 fpm.

    For a real treat, shoot the .357/.40 out of a Sig P229/M11-A1.

    rx7sig
    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    If I want hot and fast, I just swap out the 40 barrel in my 23 ( or 27) for a G32 barrel and crank up the .357 Sig. Underwood makes the ultimate "flash bang" load I've seen:

    https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785699397689

    @Misty Lu All three of the calibers you mention make for very adequate defensive rounds. I use 124gr standard pressure HSTs in 9mm. I like 135, 155-165, and 180 grain loads for the 40 S&W, and again I mostly run HSTs. My department issued 180gr HSTs in 40 and I witnessed them working with authority of a few occasions. I like the 125 grain loadings for the .357 Sig. In all three of these, I also like the various Underwood loads as well. The major ammunition manufacturers loads are pretty much all effective.
    Wolfie gave me the info I need to respond to both of you:

    I shot my 9mm +P+ LE ammo in my Glock 19 for comparison, of course.

    I shot the following .40 S&W ammo in his Glock 23:

    Remington 165 grain GSHP (strong recoil)
    Federal 155 grain HST (very snappy recoil)
    Magtech 130 grain SCHP (not bad recoil and accurate)
    135 grain Nosler HP handloads (least recoil and most accurate for me anyway.)

    .357 SIG:

    Speer 125 grain GDHP
    Remington 125 grain bonded GS

    Both of these had about the same blast and recoil. But I think the Remington ammo has the edge on accuracy. But, again, that's just me, maybe.

    124 grain Nosler handloads. Milder recoil but flashy blast. And definitely the most accurate of the three.

    I will stick with my Glock 19. And I will continue using the +P+ LE ammo for personal defense as long as Wolfie can keep me supplied with it.
     
  6. AzQkr's Avatar

    AzQkr said:
    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    My Glock 23 is a basic .40 S&W with the standard barrel - no substitutions. Conventional ammo is typically offered in 165 and 180 grain bullet weights, and of these I prefer 180. The recoil seems less snappy then with the 165s and I'm able to get back on target faster.
    That's true of 9 and 45 as well sir. Heavier bullets at slower velocities means less recoil, faster follow up shots.

    I'll never choose +P lighter bullets over s/v heavier bullets in any caliber, let alone +p+ in anything. It's not required in any of the major SD calibers to begin with.

    People still get wrapped around the axle over higher fpe translating to more effective on the street. The lowly 45acp at 830 fps out of a 5" barrel has been doing just fine for over a century.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    The lion does not even bother to turn his head when he hears the small dog barking.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/azqkr

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
     
  7. rx7sig's Avatar

    rx7sig said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Lu View Post
    ... .357 SIG: Speer 125 grain GDHP...
    Yes, my practice .357 Sig ammo is the excellent 1,375 fps edition of the 125 gr. Speer Gold Dot. Believe me, you *will* feel the difference between it and the more excellent 125 gr. Underwood Gold Dot (> 1,475 fps), even when shooting an excellent-for-.357 platform like the Sig P229/M11-A1! My 357 carry ammo is the Underwood.

    rx7sig
     
  8. hardluk1's Avatar

    hardluk1 said:
    AzQkr Remember the story - Why I Carry 145 rounds . That's a very seasoned LE officers story about why he changed from 45acp to 9mm . Now I not saying he made the best choice with a 9mm But then then remind us how great the 45 is after this shoot out and compared it to todays 9mm, 38super , 357sig or 40sw as a modern one shot man stopper .. maybe even the 380 with heavy FN bullets and 38sp .

    Heck none of the typical defensive cartridges are sure fire one shot man stoppers so carry what your comfortable with and shoot quickly and accurately be it a 22mag or a 45acp .
     
  9. AzQkr's Avatar

    AzQkr said:
    Quote Originally Posted by hardluk1 View Post
    AzQkr Remember the story - Why I Carry 145 rounds . That's a very seasoned LE officers story about why he changed from 45acp to 9mm . Now I not saying he made the best choice with a 9mm But then then remind us how great the 45 is after this shoot out and compared it to todays 9mm, 38super , 357sig or 40sw as a modern one shot man stopper .. maybe even the 380 with heavy FN bullets and 38sp .

    Heck none of the typical defensive cartridges are sure fire one shot man stoppers so carry what your comfortable with and shoot quickly and accurately be it a 22mag or a 45acp .
    I remember that quite well. There's always exception to the rules with any pistol round/caliber discussions. I too bought into the high velocity lightweight bullets creating more fpe being the best in any caliber, but that was in the 70's. 356 fpe in s//v 45 has been more than enough for generations. The 147 9mm fpe in s/v is 357.

    I haven't bought into the race for muzzle energy as the defining factor in outcomes on the streets for decades.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    The lion does not even bother to turn his head when he hears the small dog barking.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/azqkr

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
     
  10. Gunnie's Avatar

    Gunnie said:
    Quote Originally Posted by hardluk1 View Post
    Gunnie HST and ranger t series are a couple of the best performing loads out there even when moving at the slower standard velocity . Depending on your handgun , say a 3" to 3.5" barrel a 9mm 147gr standard pressure test to be better than some hotter loads that just don't work well from a short barrel and the reason speer has short barrel loads with a different bullet design and federal has that odd looking 38sp hst for snubbies . You have to know that none of the typical defensive handgun cartridges is all that as one shot gar O teed man stopper so carry what you can control well and shoot well guickly .

    I tend to carry a 4" class 40sw as my primary carry and have since '91 and find recoil nothing special even with a slow 180gr hst 1000fps load or a 155gr 1300fps load but maybe some like You gunnie are so in tune to felt recoil that you notice the difference . That's not me ! I do see the split time difference and or accuracy /control problems as handgun size gets lighter and smaller and that's when I will change to a 9mm to keep accuracy & time between shots about the same .

    Its good that we have choices .
    HST and speer both make some excellent performing loads in standard velocities. Iíve got little to know experience with Winchester ammunition in defensive use. Iíve not researched it as I have ATKs products. I also agree that common defensive handguns are anemic and underpowered. As I tell my folks when doing work on the range we carry handguns for their ease and convenience not because they are the best man stoppers. If we wanted the best for a fight we would take our rifles or shotguns. As I tell everyone and typically repeat regularly here accuracy is by far the most important followed by the ability to repeat it as needed. Which is why for most people 9mm is what I recommend it allows lesser recoil for faster follow ups, as well as less muzzle blast. Plus itís cheaper which means someone is more likely to buy and shoot more of it.

    I carry a 4Ē pistol almost exclusively a P228/P229 or G23/G19. Those are what I switched to for small guns when I quite the Government models. I notice a difference switching between the calibers within the given platform. I shoot quite a bit and can readily control all three calibers within their respective platforms. I also can tell when I go from WWB 9mm to 125gr 357 at 1400fps but Iíve added bullet weight and 300fps without adding any additional weight. When comparing defensive ammunition I see less change between them. I do see 40 to have more perceived recoil then the other two simply a mechanic of the added bullet weight and the same high velocity adding somewhat of a push atop the snap. Simply my observation playing on the range comparing the three side by side. As you mentioned youíll see it far more on a timer then just shooting but I find if you shoot strong hand only it will show itself more then shooting two handed on the flat range.

    ETA: Not to be construed as saying any of them are high in recoil or that any of the three are uncontrollable.

    I agree completely it means each person can carry what they feel most comfortable with which means they will have more confidence in the event of a high stress situation. Confidence in ones equipment/ability can make a big difference when itís just you alone.
     
  11. flintlock62's Avatar

    flintlock62 said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnie View Post
    HST and speer both make some excellent performing loads in standard velocities. Iíve got little to know experience with Winchester ammunition in defensive use. Iíve not researched it as I have ATKs products. I also agree that common defensive handguns are anemic and underpowered. As I tell my folks when doing work on the range we carry handguns for their ease and convenience not because they are the best man stoppers. If we wanted the best for a fight we would take our rifles or shotguns. As I tell everyone and typically repeat regularly here accuracy is by far the most important followed by the ability to repeat it as needed. Which is why for most people 9mm is what I recommend it allows lesser recoil for faster follow ups, as well as less muzzle blast. Plus itís cheaper which means someone is more likely to buy and shoot more of it.

    I carry a 4Ē pistol almost exclusively a P228/P229 or G23/G19. Those are what I switched to for small guns when I quite the Government models. I notice a difference switching between the calibers within the given platform. I shoot quite a bit and can readily control all three calibers within their respective platforms. I also can tell when I go from WWB 9mm to 125gr 357 at 1400fps but Iíve added bullet weight and 300fps without adding any additional weight. When comparing defensive ammunition I see less change between them. I do see 40 to have more perceived recoil then the other two simply a mechanic of the added bullet weight and the same high velocity adding somewhat of a push atop the snap. Simply my observation playing on the range comparing the three side by side. As you mentioned youíll see it far more on a timer then just shooting but I find if you shoot strong hand only it will show itself more then shooting two handed on the flat range.

    ETA: Not to be construed as saying any of them are high in recoil or that any of the three are uncontrollable.

    I agree completely it means each person can carry what they feel most comfortable with which means they will have more confidence in the event of a high stress situation. Confidence in ones equipment/ability can make a big difference when itís just you alone.
    I'm confident with my full size 40's. Sig P226 and HK P30LS.
    NRA lifetime member

    Flint
     
  12. hardluk1's Avatar

    hardluk1 said:
    AzQkr I don't try to hunt with carry handguns or ammo but on occasion I have had deer show up under my climbing stands that were old enough to take and it was quieter to draw my EDC and use it . Both tiems it was a 4" class 40sw with 155gr underwood load and both times I had pass thru shots so I know that faster lite of caliber defensive bullet works , But I am just as apt to carry a standard pressure 147gr hst in 9mm nor 230gr hst 45 . Use what has a proven back ground . .

    Gunnie Check out LuckyGunner ammo test . Not real live tissue but gives a good comparison bullet to bullet and covers most loads out there .
    Good place to start from
    Winchester Ranger T-series 230gr hp 45acp https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-2...rounds#geltest
     
  13. SouthernBoyVA's Avatar

    SouthernBoyVA said:
    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    My Glock 23 is a basic .40 S&W with the standard barrel - no substitutions. Conventional ammo is typically offered in 165 and 180 grain bullet weights, and of these I prefer 180. The recoil seems less snappy then with the 165s and I'm able to get back on target faster.
    I have three G23's; two gen3's and one gen4. One of those gen3's lives in my primary carry stable and is a fine and accurate gun. My two load choices for this gun are, in no particular order, the Federal 165 grain HST and the Speer Gold Dot 165 grain JHP "hot load" (#53970). The gun handles these loads just fine, as do I. The gun is quick to follow up shots and does not have that much muzzle flip. Perhaps one of the best SD handguns you can carry.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    America First!
     
  14. ca survivor's Avatar

    ca survivor said:
    If the .40 and .357 Sigs are snappy and too much recoil, compared to a 9mm, imagine how is going to be felt on the receiving end on a bad guy's body.
     
  15. hardluk1's Avatar

    hardluk1 said:
    If you can shoot standard pressure 9mm very well I betting a BG would know the difference from 4 or 5 well placed quickly fired 147gr hst over any of the others .

    So boys and girls shoot what you can control well in the class hand gun your tote'n . Other wise this treads nothing more than a pee 'n contest . Depending on my needs I'll carry a 9mm or 40sw or 45 acp