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This just won't go away ???

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  1. #16
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    I would be testing your chronos against others, and have others shoot through yours as suggested above. That was my first thought, and others beat me to the punch.

    Do you track ambient temperatures and relative humidities too? I canít think of other variables to be honest.
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  2. #17
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    I have followed your reloading enough to know that you had a good commercial load that shot just fine. That would be your control. That takes the shooter, the rifle , and the chrono out of the equation.
    I know you don't want to hear this but some load combos are just magic! And some aren't. Good Luck DR

  3. #18
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    Guys many thanks for all the thoughts! Unfortunately I have extensively tried most of the suggestions before I posted, but they are still much appreciated.

    The nature of this conundrum is inconsistency. I run a ladder or something to identify the best load for a particular gun, get a very specific indication, load around that sweet spot, go to the range and it's as if I'm shooting a different load and gun! Because that is a repeating experience with very precisely loaded ammo, it strongly suggests something in common with all guns and loads and that may be the chrono.

    It has puzzled me all the while how very precisely loaded ammo can come out of a gun with such high variations in velocities. Actually, I have had some amazingly tight groups with very high variations in velocities. I've also seen very poor accuracy with some of the smallest velocity variations. It's kinda like Forest Gump's mother used to say, "Life is like a box of assorted chocolates, you never know what you're going to get." That pretty well describes the velocity/accuracy - I never know what I'll get.

    I do want to mention something in reference to what @dangerranger said, "I have followed your reloading enough to know that you had a good commercial load that shot just fine. That would be your control. That takes the shooter, the rifle , and the chrono out of the equation." That, of course is a great thought, and it brought to mind my last chrono of the ammo he is referring to, IMI RazorCore 77 gr Match ammo. Here's my last chrono of that ammo:

    Measured velocities on 7/6/2019

    2773
    2751
    2775
    2805
    2866
    2832
    2809
    2757
    2772
    2794

    Stats:
    Vavg 2796
    max 2866
    min 2751
    ES 115
    SD 37.10
    IMI 77GR

    You remember all those 500 yard videos I've posted with 5 shot sub-MOA groups? They were all shot with this ammo! Notice the horrible stats in red. Those are the worst numbers I have ever seen! I know it's tempting to say if I'm getting that good of results with those numbers why am I worried about numbers? Because there are many other times the IMI does not perform like that. I find it's awfully easy to accept the good as the rule and dismiss the bad as a bad day, etc. More to the point I think, is how can ammo loaded so meticulously as indicated below, produce such high variations in velocity?

    We could conclude that this definitely points to the chrono since this ammo has been so good. But, it could also be the quality and/or particular lot of ammo is at fault. Right now, I trust my reloads, because I know they are precisely loaded. I really don't know how precisely loaded factory ammo is.

    Just for reference, let me re-post my reloading procedure for your review, maybe there's a glaring something missing???

    This is for EVERY case and bullet

    • I wet pin tumble the cases for 2 hours (because my PRS buddy that gets incredible numbers uses that method)
    • I dry tumble the cleaned cases thoroughly to separate the pins from the cases
    • I heat the cases to 230į for 45 minutes. The 230į is above the boiling point of water to be sure every little drop of moisture is gone.
    • I lube, size, and deprime the cases
    • I measure the primer pockets to detect over-expansion
    • I remove the lube
    • I prime (Federal GM205M) by hand noting low resistance on a primer - that case is discarded and replaced
    • I measure and trim the cases to 1.750" to 1.755"
    • I chamfer the inside and outside of the cases
    • I calibrate my Franklin Arsenal Intellidropper dispenser and throw loads with it
    • I dump the dispensed load into my beam balance pan and adjust the powder as necessary to get a "zero" error
    • I dump the powder into the case
    • I seat the bullet with a Hornady match grade die with a micrometer stem
    • Every bullet is seated and then measured from case base to ogive and is gently adjusted to within +/-0.001" as needed


    I have frequently sorted cases by weight, I find it makes little difference, certainly does not account for those unreasonably high spreads I get.

    With regard to suspicion on the chrono, I do see that I am not getting the same numbers, i.e. velocity spreads, I see published in gun magazines. Again, could be my chrono, could be the ammo lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerranger
    I know you don't want to hear this but some load combos are just magic! And some aren't. Good Luck DR
    I know, but I've tried so many combinations of powders and bullets, including seating depth variations looking for an acceptable combination. So far, any magic eludes me.
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  5. #19
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    Rifle condition for every shot? Clean? Perfect? Dirty from five prior shots? Cold? Hot? Whatever?

    You've isolated variables I don't even understand, so that's my best shot.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    Rifle condition for every shot? Clean? Perfect? Dirty from five prior shots? Cold? Hot? Whatever?

    You've isolated variables I don't even understand, so that's my best shot.
    Good thoughts!

    I typically shoot 5 to 10 "prep" shots before I start shooting reloads. The thinking here is, get the gun warmed up to a fairly stable operating temperature and shoot reloads at a pace to try not to cause too much of a deviation in chamber/barrel temp. Also, I only load one round into a magazine. I don't chamber that round until I'm ready to shoot it. Loading one at a time prevents a round from auto loading from the magazine into the chamber and heating up until shot.

    The clean part isn't precise but is consistent. My PRS buddy goes between 100 - 200 rounds before cleaning, a habit he picked up from the top competitors he shoots with in matches. Following his example, maybe a bit more conservative, cleaning for me is a bit different than most I would think because I shoot about 5 days a week hence my gun(s) are not shot and left uncleaned for weeks at a time. I can clean once a week and that puts me in the 100 - 150 count range.

    To tell you the truth Rock and Glock, I don't think you're at any more of a loss on this than I am. Reloading seems waaaay too simple for me to be getting really high numbers and not know why.
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  7. #21
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    My money is on an intermittent issue with the chronograph.

    Shooting the loads over two chronographs simultaneously should make short work of determining if that is the cause.
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  8. #22
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    Iím new to reloading so canít offer anything meaningful technically. But, I have many years of practical experience which leads me to ask whether youíve ever just considered slipping your friend a few bucks to make up some quality loads for you?

    Iím kidding, of course. Persevere. Youíll get there.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrabbyOldGuy View Post
    Iím new to reloading so canít offer anything meaningful technically. But, I have many years of practical experience which leads me to ask whether youíve ever just considered slipping your friend a few bucks to make up some quality loads for you?

    Iím kidding, of course. Persevere. Youíll get there.
    LOL! Not a bad idea!
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Man View Post
    My money is on an intermittent issue with the chronograph.

    Shooting the loads over two chronographs simultaneously should make short work of determining if that is the cause.
    I hope - I've tried so many things, there's just not much left to try - the chrono is just about the last hope.
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  11. #25
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    Have you run any of your buddies ammo through your gun, or your through his? There is risk there if you loading hotties, but that would cast more light on the him vs you. Have you shot through his chrono? Has he shot through yours?

    I feel it is something simple...but I donít want to say over looked.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Struckat View Post
    Have you run any of your buddies ammo through your gun, or your through his? There is risk there if you loading hotties, but that would cast more light on the him vs you. Have you shot through his chrono? Has he shot through yours?

    I feel it is something simple...but I donít want to say over looked.
    Well, at this point, I think "over-looked" is about as good of a descriptor as we could come up with!

    I have done that. Here's what 16 of his reloads looked like. I forget why he stopped his first set of 10 at #6, but as I recall, it was so bad in some regard, he decided not to shoot any more from that set??? The second set, full 10, was with Berger bullets.



    While the numbers are better, this is far from leading to any conclusion for several reasons. One, it's a very small sample. E.g. I have often seen numbers in this range, and if I were to estimate my most likely numbers, I would say, SDs around 20-30 and ESs around 40-50. Those are bad enough for the precision I go to in reloading, but the comon extremes of 70-100 fps spreads are just unacceptable.

    Second, the numbers are still about 2-3 times higher than they should be. When my buddy loads his 6mm ammo, he often gets SDs around 5 fps. - I've seen it numerous times. However, what I've seen of his numbers, is still a very small sample, meaning I may have simply seen the best of his numbers. Having said that, he does expect to see SDs under 10 fps.

    Third, his loads, i.e. charge, was "best guess" charge. He loaded all the rounds to the same charge, but that may not have been a charge that the gun liked, or it may be the best charge for the gun and the numbers were still high.

    So there's still a lot of uncertainty with my buddy's reloads.

    It is also interesting that while I whine about the high extremes, I do get those extremely low extremes. E.g. I see SDs under 10, one as low as 1.5 fps!

    I'm hoping to be able to do some dual chronoing today and see what happens.
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  13. #27
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    I'm planning on hitting the range tomorrow, primarily to see if I can figure out how to use my Sporter. I'll have a range of rounds varying from mild fireforming loads to hotter rounds, about 125 rounds if I get through them all. It's a mixture of powders, cheap bullets, some seconds, a mix of brass, primers, etc. It will be interesting to see what results that mismatch produces. Here's to hoping I can get the numbers!
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I'm planning on hitting the range tomorrow, primarily to see if I can figure out how to use my Sporter. I'll have a range of rounds varying from mild fireforming loads to hotter rounds, about 125 rounds if I get through them all. It's a mixture of powders, cheap bullets, some seconds, a mix of brass, primers, etc. It will be interesting to see what results that mismatch produces. Here's to hoping I can get the numbers!
    So @OldVet , What kind of numbers did you get today???
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  15. #29
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    Just got back from the range. In honesty, I was going to make up some fantastic numbers but was afraid it might send you diving off the bridge into the Chattanooga River.

    It took a few tries to get the chrony to work. Apparently distance between the bore and sensors is critical. Finally got that worked out.

    First up were some fireforming loads with IMR-4198, which I've found is unsuitable as it doesn't cycle the loads and is somewhat of a creampuff recoil wise. I did not expect any performance numbers, but it was good for figuring out the MagnetoSpeed. 4198 doesn't drop all that well from my powder dropper but will stay+/_ .1 grain, which is close enough for fireforming. I needed to use up the last of it.

    Ten shots of 20.0 grains pushing a 55-grain Dogtown SP gave an average of 2778, Hi 2853, Lo 2693, SD 47, and ES 160
    Ten shots at 20.3 gave an AV 2827, Hi 2896, Lo 2768, SD 34, and ES 128
    Fifteen shots at 20.5 grains gave an AV 2865m Hi 2892, Lo 2791, SD 31, and ES 101

    Not very good numbers, but it served its purposed on the cases. There is room left for more powder, but I'd prefer H335 or something else.

    Next up was 70-grain HPBTs--seconds--with H335 powder/CCI 450 primers - five rounds each:

    26.5 grains
    AV 3104
    HI 3458 (?)
    Lo 3001
    SD 198
    ES 457

    I clearly question that high shot as the following loads were more in line with expectations. I don't know that the case would hold enough powder for that high velocity.

    27.0 Grains
    AV 3068
    Hi 3079
    Lo 3056
    SD 10
    ES 23

    27.5 Grains
    AV 3090
    Hi 3102
    Lo 3056
    SD 13
    ES 50

    27.8 Grains
    AV 3140
    Hi 3155
    Lo 3128
    SD 10
    ES 27

    28.0 Grains
    AV 3170
    Hi 3195
    Lo 3154
    SD 15
    ES 41

    You can see why I question that one shot that read 3458 fps. These rounds are cooking along at a pretty good velocity, but I don't think it's in the 3400 range. Other than that, this powder/bullet combo shows some potential.

    Then some more 70-grain HPBT seconds with BL-C(2) powder/450 primers:

    27.5 grains
    AV 2875
    Hi 2907
    Lo 2840
    SD 19
    ES 67

    28.0
    Av 2953
    Hi 2971
    Lo 2931
    SD 12
    ES 40

    28.5 (5 rds)
    AV 2994
    Hi 3012
    Lo 2968
    SD 17
    ES 44

    And 10 more of same:
    AV 2992
    Hi 3012
    Lo 2938
    SD 12
    ES 44

    Some potential there, but BL-C(2) is pretty dirty and really fills the case to the top where I have to tamp it down to seat the bullet. It's at its max without getting into compressed loadings.

    I actually had 20 rounds of the 28.5-grain loads, but for reasons undetermined as of yet--I had five no-fires in a row in one magazine! After three misfires, I pulled the mag and inspected the rounds. All three had solid primer strikes, and I mean good ones. I pulled the BCG our and inspected the firing pin and expected to find something wrong, but other than soot there was no defects. I put it back together and tried the next two rounds with the same result, qualifying for insanity I think. They also had solid primer strikes.

    So just because I was down to my last five rounds, I loaded them and all five fired as normal. What kind of odds exist that I would have five dud primers--in a row?--in one box of reloads? I haven't had a bad primer since 1976! I'm going to break them down and pop the primers out for inspection, but I know they weren't "high" as I run my finger over each seated primer to make sure they are below flush and all primer pockets had received the Lyman primer pocket treatment. No oily fingers or such.

    Anyhow, once I got it to present numbers, I was pretty impressed with the MagnetoSpeed Sporter. One fellow took a picture of it to send to his "conservative" son to tell him it was a bayonet.

    If you disregard the fireforming numbers and toss out that 3400 fps reading, I think I'm getting "decent" results considering I don't go to near the measures in each load you are. Mixed brass, powder drop loads on a beam scale, basic flash hole and primer pocket uniforming, trimmed case when they reach the max length, etc.

    Target wise, the results were typical of my shooting recently. I have a hard time with a cataract in my shooting eye, which is due to be removed next week, so I won't be shooting for a while. I get too much horizontal stringing, which I know is me as I can see it in the cross hairs. Vertical displacement is decent, running about 1" (@100 yards) when I focus on it.

    Now I just need to figure out what happened with those five consecutive dud primers.
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  16. #30
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    You got some good numbers - and you alluded to something that has been nagging at me - the high charges I run. Outback 69, Federal Premium 77 gr SMKs, and Fiocchi 77 gr SMKs (all factory loads) are considered top of the line (manufacturer's line) ammo. They all shoot much slower than my reloads by anywhere from 100 - 150 fps or so. Although I'm well under manufacturer's max load recommendations, it does make me wonder if there's some magic in lighter loads than I'm running.

    OTOH, IMI 77 gr RazorCore match is hot! And, it shoots good. Although, as of late, it's been giving some pretty high numbers - higher than what you got.

    As I recall you throw, rather than weigh the charges, I am remembering that right??? And, again as I recall, you don't measure the seating depth of each round??? Yet, you're getting better numbers than I do and I weigh each charge on a beam balance and measure every seating depth. You would think my numbers would be at least as good as your numbers - I mean I shouldn't be making problems by precisely weighing charges or measuring seating depths.

    It remains, it could be my MagnetoSpeed not measuring accurately. I'm set up to go to the range and chrono with LabRadar and MagnetoSpeed (which I've done before) to see if it is the MagnetoSpeed.

    Many thanks @OldVet for going to the trouble and posting such a thorough report!
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
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