Well, it doesn't appear to be the chrono... - Page 2

Well, it doesn't appear to be the chrono...

This is a discussion on Well, it doesn't appear to be the chrono... within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I know this sounds crazy, but don't you have a buddy close by that reloads the same caliber too and his ammo is more consistent? ...

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Thread: Well, it doesn't appear to be the chrono...

  1. #16
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    I know this sounds crazy, but don't you have a buddy close by that reloads the same caliber too and his ammo is more consistent? I seem to recall you mentioning in one of the other threads trying a friend's ammo or him trying yours. Would it be possible to take your components over to his place and reload some cartridges on his reloading equipment? Have him watch you too. Sometimes we just need an outside source to peek over our shoulder...

    I'm also wondering if perhaps there is some variable with your equipment? Maybe something goofy like differing neck tension from case to case, inconsistent shoulder set on the resizing die...something like that not readily apparent. Is that possible?
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risasi View Post
    I know this sounds crazy, but don't you have a buddy close by that reloads the same caliber too and his ammo is more consistent? I seem to recall you mentioning in one of the other threads trying a friend's ammo or him trying yours. Would it be possible to take your components over to his place and reload some cartridges on his reloading equipment? Have him watch you too. Sometimes we just need an outside source to peek over our shoulder...

    I'm also wondering if perhaps there is some variable with your equipment? Maybe something goofy like differing neck tension from case to case, inconsistent shoulder set on the resizing die...something like that not readily apparent. Is that possible?
    Good idea, but the ammo he loaded that did so well was a very small 5 shot sample. Based on the small sample and how he reloads, this was likely a "luck of the draw". My other buddy loads with much greater care, better components, etc. and doesn't get much better numbers but he does get them consistently.

    I would love to shoot about 20 rounds from that buddy's reloads that did so well that one time.

    Those things you mentioned are certainly possibilities, I mean something's going on for sure. Some of those things I do monitor, esp. neck tension and primer pocket stretch. I pay close attention to the seating force required to seat a bullet. That's by no means exact, but it's probably a pretty good indicator.

    I'll give that some thought as I turn to load some ammo right now!
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Man, I reckon so!

    I'm about ready to believe something like that. Anybody know anything about a reloading curse - and how you get out of it!
    First you have to reload and forget to add the powder...
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    First you have to reload and forget to add the powder...
    LOL - that's funny! On a sadder note...

    Not only have I seated bullets without powder in the cases , I've loaded powder in cases with no primers in the cases . Fortunately I caught both before finalizing the reload. Just happened to realize I hadn't put the powder in. On the other occasion, the fine TAC powder came pouring out of the primer hole(s).
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  6. #20
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    On the up side, those five rounds had an ES and SD of zero. Quite impressive, but velocity was nothing to brag about.
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  7. #21
    Member Array CrabbyOldGuy's Avatar
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    The plots seem to suggest the chronos are consistent. I forget. Are the holes in the paper close together or far apart? Is the ruler calibrated? Imperial vs metric? Iíve personally had issues when using some of these new digital tools.

    Are all loads using powder from the same lot number? Humidity? Temp when loaded vs temp when fired?
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  8. #22
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    Yeah, I didn't think it was the chrony. I have both the MS and the RL and both seem quite reliable.

    Where to go from here? As I suggested before, I'd try the entire array of primers and see what that does. I've seen a change of primers halve the SD's. I guess after finding the best primer, I'd also play with OAL and neck tension, either of those certainly affect the SD/ES.
    I guess you're running your loads pretty warm. Be sure to reduce your loads and work back up when trying the magnum primers, they can push you over the limit.
    Last edited by CavemanBob; July 17th, 2019 at 11:53 PM.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
    As an engineer and metrologist, my moto was: Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, and cut it with an axe.
    Once upon a time, I was a metrologist too, it was my MOS in the Army working in a secondary reference lab.
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CavemanBob View Post
    Yeah, I didn't think it was the chrony. I have both the MS and the RL and both seem quite reliable.

    Where to go from here? As I suggested before, I'd try the entire array of primers and see what that does. I've seen a change of primers halve the SD's. I guess after finding the best primer, I'd also play with OAL and neck tension, either of those certainly affect the SD/ES.
    I guess you're running your loads pretty warm. Be sure to reduce your loads and work back up when trying the magnum primers, they can push you over the limit.

    OK, my plan is to be at Sportsman's Warehouse when they open (9:00) and get every primer in the place that I can force into a small rifle pocket

    Hopefully, they will have have a reasonable assortment, and then there's also Bass Pro about 3 miles from SW, and Cabelas about 3 miles from Bass Pro, so I'll come home with a primer spread - anything and everything that will fit a small rifle primer pocket.

    This better work!

    Actually, I have tried CCI, CCI BR-4, and Remington 7-1/2. That's why I switched to Federal GM205s - the others didn't give good results. Of course, I'm still not getting good results. I have noticed that the BR-4s bumped up the velocity by about 40 fps. Before we get too excited about that, the only way velocity can go up, in a given gun, is for the pressure to go up - sooo....The other thing I noticed with the BR-4s was the accuracy was poor.

    But, it's worth a re-try so I'll get the primers and load up and see.

    And, I guess it's worth adding, else why would I be adding it , I've tried Winchester, Remington, Lapua, Hornady, SSA, Sig, and IMI cases - nothing changes.

    I've tried CFE 223, Varget, H4895, IMR 8208 XBR, Reloder 15, TAC, Accurate 2525 powders, nothing changes.

    I've tried Sierra SMK 77 gr, Hornady 75 gr BTHP, Nosler 77 gr BTHP. Hornady 68 gr BTHP, Berger 77 gr OTM, Hornady 60 gr VMAX, Hornady 73 gr ELD bullets. Not much changes - still higher than expected numbers.

    Kinda puzzling isn't it! And why am I the only one that gets the high numbers???
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  11. #25
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    CFE 223, Varget, H4895, IMR 8208 XBR, Reloder 15, TAC, Accurate 2525 powders, nothing changes.

    I haven't used any of those powders. As I recall, the only powder I've used in my .223s is IMR-4198, and it seemed fairly potent. Never chonied it though. I know it was pretty lousy in my Mongoose fireforming loads, but they were light loads, maybe too light.

    So far, H335 seems to run the best, at least numbers wise. It's fairly clean too.

    BL-C(2) numbers aren't bad, nor is the accuracy, but it dirtier and more voluminous. I cannot pack as much of it into a case as some other Mongoose shooters have reported.

    Both are ball powders and meter very consistently, which I like. The drops usually have the lines on the scale aligned, never seem to vary more than touching above or below exactly aligned.

    I'm going to work up a few 5-shot strings with both and try to get as exact as I can with the drops, using a trickler if necessary. I have some already loaded with H335 and Win primers (which I'm not sure I like) but will use CCI 450 primers for all the rest just for consistency sake. I'm due to have a cataract removed on Monday, so it nay be a while before I can get to the range to test them.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    CFE 223, Varget, H4895, IMR 8208 XBR, Reloder 15, TAC, Accurate 2525 powders, nothing changes.

    I haven't used any of those powders. As I recall, the only powder I've used in my .223s is IMR-4198, and it seemed fairly potent. Never chonied it though. I know it was pretty lousy in my Mongoose fireforming loads, but they were light loads, maybe too light.

    So far, H335 seems to run the best, at least numbers wise. It's fairly clean too.

    BL-C(2) numbers aren't bad, nor is the accuracy, but it dirtier and more voluminous. I cannot pack as much of it into a case as some other Mongoose shooters have reported.

    Both are ball powders and meter very consistently, which I like. The drops usually have the lines on the scale aligned, never seem to vary more than touching above or below exactly aligned.

    I'm going to work up a few 5-shot strings with both and try to get as exact as I can with the drops, using a trickler if necessary. I have some already loaded with H335 and Win primers (which I'm not sure I like) but will use CCI 450 primers for all the rest just for consistency sake. I'm due to have a cataract removed on Monday, so it nay be a while before I can get to the range to test them.
    Sounds exciting! Eager to hear the results on the loads and eyes. I've had my left eye done, and my wife has had both eyes done - not really much to it, you'll probably be good to go the next day.
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  13. #27
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    Here's what I have loaded so far:
    H335, WSR primers, LC 12-14 brass, 65-grain ballistic-tip BTs. These are red-tipped "seconds" which I think are Hornady.
    Five each loads at 27.0, 27.5, 28.0, 28.3, 28.5 grains. These are drop measured with zero lines touching if not centered. Very consistent in drops.
    COL is 2.214-ish, which by my measurements leaves ogive .016 off the lands.

    BL-C(2), CCI 450 primers, FC 14 cases, 65-grain BTBT seconds.
    Five each at 27.7, 28.0, 28.3, 28.5, 28.7 grains. Unlike the H335 loads, these are individually hand-weighed, using a trickler as needed. Surprisingly, when I set the dropper to weight with the scale marks aligned, it took no more than a few (half dozen or so) granules trickled to "zero" the scale. This is a fine ball powder, and I cannot see that tiny an amount making a difference ballistic.
    This powder really fills the case at the higher loads and requires tamping to settle it to the shoulder-neck level.
    COL the same 2.214-ish, varying from 2.210 to 2.218 at extremes, most falling at 2.213-2.216.

    I think I have some 85-grain bullets I haven't tried yet, so I may work up a few of those in my down time.

    Added:
    Mixed brass (FC, LC, a few commercials thrown in for kicks), 450 primers, BL-C(2), 85-grain HPBT seconds. Five rounds each.
    25.5, 26.0, 26.5, 27.0, 27.5 grains.
    COL on first three is 2.180, 2.185-ish on the last two. 27.0 caused slight compression and a ring on the bullet to reach 2.185, 27.5 even more so. Probably not good for long-range accuracy with a depressed ring around the bullet. Still .020-.015 off the lands.

    That's probably all I'll shoot in a session. Just getting too dang hot at the range.
    Last edited by OldVet; July 19th, 2019 at 07:04 PM.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    First you have to reload and forget to add the powder...
    My powder gets thrown automatically. Itís the primers that I forget. I know that my powder dumps because I feel it hit my feet.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Here's what I have loaded so far:
    H335, WSR primers, LC 12-14 brass, 65-grain ballistic-tip BTs. These are red-tipped "seconds" which I think are Hornady.
    Five each loads at 27.0, 27.5, 28.0, 28.3, 28.5 grains. These are drop measured with zero lines touching if not centered. Very consistent in drops.
    COL is 2.214-ish, which by my measurements leaves ogive .016 off the lands.

    BL-C(2), CCI 450 primers, FC 14 cases, 65-grain BTBT seconds.
    Five each at 27.7, 28.0, 28.3, 28.5, 28.7 grains. Unlike the H335 loads, these are individually hand-weighed, using a trickler as needed. Surprisingly, when I set the dropper to weight with the scale marks aligned, it took no more than a few (half dozen or so) granules trickled to "zero" the scale. This is a fine ball powder, and I cannot see that tiny an amount making a difference ballistic.
    This powder really fills the case at the higher loads and requires tamping to settle it to the shoulder-neck level.
    COL the same 2.214-ish, varying from 2.210 to 2.218 at extremes, most falling at 2.213-2.216.

    I think I have some 85-grain bullets I haven't tried yet, so I may work up a few of those in my down time.

    Added:
    Mixed brass (FC, LC, a few commercials thrown in for kicks), 450 primers, BL-C(2), 85-grain HPBT seconds. Five rounds each.
    25.5, 26.0, 26.5, 27.0, 27.5 grains.
    COL on first three is 2.180, 2.185-ish on the last two. 27.0 caused slight compression and a ring on the bullet to reach 2.185, 27.5 even more so. Probably not good for long-range accuracy with a depressed ring around the bullet. Still .020-.015 off the lands.

    That's probably all I'll shoot in a session. Just getting too dang hot at the range.
    Is this 5.56/.223???

    The reason I ask, I've never seen COAL lengths less than 2.250" for 5.56/.223. That' includes Hornady, Western Powders (TAC & Accurate 2530), Hodgdon, Sierra, Barnes, Berger, Alliant, and Nosler reloading manuals.
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  16. #30
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    I set my col to 2.238 with a 75 grain HPBT bullet and it works very well. I load with 22.1 grains IMR 3031 a stick powder and CCI 400 primers. My chamber is for 5.56mm. It's for me it is a very accurate for me. That's at usual distance of 50 yards.
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