Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88 - Page 3

Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88

This is a discussion on Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88 within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; You're trying too hard. Relax and reload for a hobby. Throw some loads together without all the regimen and see what happens. Sometimes "close enough" ...

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Thread: Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    You're trying too hard. Relax and reload for a hobby. Throw some loads together without all the regimen and see what happens. Sometimes "close enough" really is.
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  2. #32
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    It seems like this has to be a case issue of some kind??? When I used new Lapua cases in three sets, I got really good accuracy and numbers. I then switched to previously loaded Lapua brass and there was a decline in performance.

    Then I went to previously loaded Hornady brass and the first set looked good! The second set seemed not bad, but not as good as the first and did show significant variation from the first set. The third set was a disaster???

    I have some new Hornady cases. I'm going to try a load set with them and see what happens. Maybe some cases wind up with more residue in them after cleaning.
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  3. #33
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    Cases do lose some of their "rebound" ability with multiple firings. I don't how much or if that is having an effect. Try buying new Lapua brass and throwing it away after each firing.

    Do you anneal cases? I and "told" that restores neck tension lost through the reworking of brass from firing and resizing. I've tried it, the poor man's method, and had mixed results. Mixed might be giving it credit, I had some failed to extracts and poor neck tension afterwards. Then again, I annealed "after" resizing, and some say to anneal then resize to restore the tension. I dunno. Just another thought.
    Last edited by OldVet; July 29th, 2019 at 11:46 PM.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    You're trying too hard. Relax and reload for a hobby. Throw some loads together without all the regimen and see what happens. Sometimes "close enough" really is.
    I'm still liking this idea - and the basket weaving.
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  6. #35
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    Do you fire all same charge weight at once?

    Or do you fire one of the first weight, then one of the next weight, etc. until you get through one of each? Then start all over again and go through your second, third, fourth of each charge weight.

    There’s a load development method that supposedly helps sort out barrel temp, barrel fouling, chamber temp, and any other gun related variable when testing multiple charges.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    It seems like this has to be a case issue of some kind??? When I used new Lapua cases in three sets, I got really good accuracy and numbers. I then switched to previously loaded Lapua brass and there was a decline in performance.

    Then I went to previously loaded Hornady brass and the first set looked good! The second set seemed not bad, but not as good as the first and did show significant variation from the first set. The third set was a disaster???

    I have some new Hornady cases. I'm going to try a load set with them and see what happens. Maybe some cases wind up with more residue in them after cleaning.
    Maybe it’s your sizing die?
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by StripesDude View Post
    Do you fire all same charge weight at once?

    Or do you fire one of the first weight, then one of the next weight, etc. until you get through one of each? Then start all over again and go through your second, third, fourth of each charge weight.

    There’s a load development method that supposedly helps sort out barrel temp, barrel fouling, chamber temp, and any other gun related variable when testing multiple charges.
    I fire one charge set and then take a short break and start the next charge set.

    I saw a video by 8541 where he explained the "round robin" method, but I think the method is seriously flawed for temperature purposes.

    Here's three tables of temperature rises we could expect from three different methods. I'll use an ambient temp of 90° and we'll assume a 5° barrel temperature rise per shot. Be aware that I'm allowing a 10° cool down between "sets" in all three of the following examples.

    Table 1 5 shots of one charge, then move to the next charge:

    1 2 3 4 5 temp chg
    23.4 90 95 100 105 110 20
    23.8 100 105 110 115 120 20
    24.2 110 115 120 125 130 20
    24.6 120 125 130 135 140 20
    25.0 130 135 140 145 150 20

    In the following table we fire one shot from the first group, then one shot from the second charge group, then one shot from the 3rd charge group and continue until we reach the last charge group. We let the gun cool, then start over with the same procedure with the second shot from each charge group.

    1 2 3 4 5 temp chg
    23.4 90 100 110 120 130 40
    23.8 95 105 115 125 135 40
    24.2 100 110 120 130 140 40
    24.6 105 115 125 135 145 40
    25.0 110 120 130 140 150 40

    And there's one more method I know of and that's to shoot down, i.e. one shot from each charge group, then reverse the order starting with the highest charge group, etc. This one is easily the most confusing so I'll explain a bit. We shoot the first round of the first charge, 23.4 gr, then the first round of the second charge, 23.8 gr, then the first round of the third charge, 24.2 gr, and so on until we shoot the first round of the last charge set. After we let the gun cool a bit, which explains the drops in temps, we shoot in the opposite direction, i.e. we shoot the second round of the highest charge, 25.0 gr, then the second round of the 24.6 gr charge, then the second round of the 24.2 gr charge and so on until we reach the 23.4 gr charge group. Let the gun cool and go back the other way from low to high charge.

    1 2 3 4 5 temp chg
    23.4 90 120 110 140 130 40
    23.8 95 115 115 135 135 40
    24.2 100 110 120 130 140 40
    24.6 105 105 125 125 145 40
    25.0 110 100 130 120 150 40

    Notice in the first table, the way I shoot the charges, the temperature difference from one shot to the next within any charge group is 5° AND, the max temperature change from the first shot of the charge group to the last is 20°

    Then notice in the other two tables that the temperature difference from one shot to the next within any charge group is 10° and the max temperature change from the first shot of the charge group to the last is 40°.

    Do you have any info on the method you're referring to? Thanks!
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Maybe it’s your sizing die?
    It's for sure something! That's certainly a possibility. My PRS (Precision Rifle Shooting) buddy came to the range day before yesterday and his test rounds would not chamber. It turned out there was a tiny lip/edge around the mouth of each case. He used my Leatherman diamond file to remove the edge and the ammo chambered no problem.

    When he got home, he discovered the bushing in his sizing die was "dirty". He cleaned it and the problem went away.

    It's funny in a way, so many of the thoughts that get posted, I've already tried. This is the most elusive thing I've ever tackled. For example, I checked the shoulder set on 10 cases using a RCBS case micrometer. They were all sizing within 0.001". The cases lengthen about 0.005" due to sizing. I've seen a number of cases that measure in the 1.746" neighborhood come up to 1.750" - 1.752" after sizing.

    But, since you brought it up, there have been an awful lot of cases run through my sizing die, maybe I need to clean it good.
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  10. #39
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    I'm going to try one more thing. I've noticed for a long time now that my Hornady beam balance (BB) "sticks" most of the time. That is, when I place the dispensed charge into the BB pan, the arm doesn't move. The slightest tap on the body of the BB gets it going.

    Also, I've notice that if I tap on the body of the BB repeatedly, it acquires a slightly different "zero" charge weight.

    Honestly, I don't think even if the BB has a little error in it, it could even start to account for a 75-100 fps change in velocity, but it's worth a try I guess, so I'll load cases directly from my Frankford Arsenal electronic Intellidropper and see what happens.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I'm going to try one more thing. I've noticed for a long time now that my Hornady beam balance (BB) "sticks" most of the time. That is, when I place the dispensed charge into the BB pan, the arm doesn't move. The slightest tap on the body of the BB gets it going.

    Also, I've notice that if I tap on the body of the BB repeatedly, it acquires a slightly different "zero" charge weight.

    Honestly, I don't think even if the BB has a little error in it, it could even start to account for a 75-100 fps change in velocity, but it's worth a try I guess, so I'll load cases directly from my Frankford Arsenal electronic Intellidropper and see what happens.
    My RCBS 505 does not do that. The only time I've had any issue with it is when the little aluminum frame that surrounds the pointer became bent slightly it rubbed on the beam. A little tweak and it was back in order. Maybe it needs a cleaning.

    I have noticed from time to time when the A/C kicks on the beam will wobble, but cupping my hand over the charge stops it. Minor annoyance I can live with. Usually it stabilizes in a dip or two, so it's easy to notice when it doesn't.
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  12. #41
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    I'm loaded and headed out to the range...

    Same charges, Hornady new cases, powder only dispensed, i.e. not confirmed on BB

    Case wts:

    1 97.9
    2 97.7
    3 97.5
    4 97.5
    5 97.8
    6 98.0
    7 98.0
    8 98.4
    9 97.8
    10 97.8
    11 97.4
    12 97.7
    13 97.4
    14 97.7
    15 97.9
    16 97.3
    17 97.8
    18 97.5
    19 98.2
    20 97.5
    21 97.7
    22 98.0
    23 98.3
    24 98.0
    25 97.9

    I will compare case weights to velocity. I've done this before and the results were completely non-conclusive.

    Update on results in about 2 hours - stay tuned...
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  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    It's for sure something! That's certainly a possibility. My PRS (Precision Rifle Shooting) buddy came to the range day before yesterday and his test rounds would not chamber. It turned out there was a tiny lip/edge around the mouth of each case. He used my Leatherman diamond file to remove the edge and the ammo chambered no problem.

    When he got home, he discovered the bushing in his sizing die was "dirty". He cleaned it and the problem went away.

    It's funny in a way, so many of the thoughts that get posted, I've already tried. This is the most elusive thing I've ever tackled. For example, I checked the shoulder set on 10 cases using a RCBS case micrometer. They were all sizing within 0.001". The cases lengthen about 0.005" due to sizing. I've seen a number of cases that measure in the 1.746" neighborhood come up to 1.750" - 1.752" after sizing.

    But, since you brought it up, there have been an awful lot of cases run through my sizing die, maybe I need to clean it good.
    Does your friend full length or neck size just out of curiosity?

    I somewhat noticed the pattern in your targets with the lapis cases, and when you said it’s the same with your Hornady cases, that immediately made me think there is an issue of your cases not being resized properly, whether it’s dirty, or the die is out of spec. However, I would think each firing the case would fill the chamber, so I would also be led to believe if it were notnresizing them correctly, it would at least resize them the same each time. A consistent inconsistency(I think that makes sense?) with various types of brass that occurs over the course of several firings stands out to me as a sizing issue. All of your other bases have been checked that I can think of. You are using high quality bullets and have used many different powders. And have verified every measurement that one would normally check. Even if there was a problem with any of that, it would not be something that would be a predictable decline. You could try to clean your sizing die, maybe even take it out and reset it if you have left it installed ever since you’ve got it, and if that doesn’t work, does your friend have a die you could borrow to try? I don’t think mine will be of much use since I got angry and threw it across the garage.
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  14. #43
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    It just gets better and better...

    Here's the shoot from this morning - quite impressive if I do say so myself, and I do say so



    Starting with the paradox of the rightmost dot. This is by far, the worst group - guess what? It has by far the best velocity variation and standard deviation numbers! How many times I see this! And, I do see the times when the best accuracy comes with the best numbers.

    Since I was shooting at 50 yards, I measured the group in inches and multiplied by 2 to get the MOA. That's approximate and gives larger than actual numbers. For example that middle dot that had a 4 shot group that measured 0.2", becomes 0.4 MOA when multiplied by 2. But the actual MOA would be 2*0.2"/1.047 = 0.38 MOA. So all the MOAs are a wee bit high.

    I forgot to plug in the chrono for the first shot of the first group, so that is a 5 shot group, but only 4 shots for the numbers.

    Of course is with new cases but they were sized in the same die I use for previously loaded cases. I did not confirm charges with a beam balance - they're straight from the Intelli-dropper.

    I'm quite pleased with this. I did have that one charge that had bad numbers (4th from left) but all the other numbers are great as far as I'm concerned.

    So let's have a informal poll here. Based solely on this set, which charge would you pick as the go to charge?

    And, is it going to repeat this afternoon?
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  15. #44
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    @Tangle , I know you said they were sized in the same die, but they should be sized from the factory. I always run new brass through my sizing die just to be safe, but they SHOULD already be good to go, so your sizing die should have little, if any effect on it the first time around.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    @Tangle , I know you said they were sized in the same die, but they should be sized from the factory. I always run new brass through my sizing die just to be safe, but they SHOULD already be good to go, so your sizing die should have little, if any effect on it the first time around.
    I'm still assimilating your previous post.

    I size new cases to be sure the shoulder is set correctly for feeding in my gun. Now that you've said that, I wish I had mic'd them before I sized them. And, from the factory they may be sized a bit tight for an AR, so I size them just to be on the safe side.
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