Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88 - Page 6

Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88

This is a discussion on Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88 within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Your neck tension, even if not optimal should be consistent over 4 loadings of the same brass though. I still think trying another sizing die ...

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Thread: Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Your neck tension, even if not optimal should be consistent over 4 loadings of the same brass though. I still think trying another sizing die is worth a shot.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Your neck tension, even if not optimal should be consistent over 4 loadings of the same brass though. I still think trying another sizing die is worth a shot.
    Well, as it turns out, velocity is very insensitive to neck tension. I watched a Johnny's Reloading Bench on YouTube where he did a test of crimping with a Lee Factory Crimp die, the very one I use. From no crimp to max crimp, he conceded that he could draw no conclusions about crimping. That kinda supports the idea that neck tension doesn't affect velocity very much.

    I can try a different sizing die, but seems like my current sizing die, a Hornady Match grade bushing die, would size consistently. I cleaned it and didn't see anything that would contribute to randomness or the huge velocity variations I get sometimes.

    Still, it's worth a try. I think I have an RCBS sizing die, I'll give that a try today.
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  3. #78
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    Hummm, consistent resizing... Here's something you can try if you haven't.

    When I form Mongoose cases, I have found I get a much more consistent head space measurement if I seat the case fully in the die, retract it slightly and rotate about 33 degrees, seat again, and rotate about 33 degrees again and seat a final time. I find instead of a .001-.003 length variation, I'll get closer to .0005-.001.

    Clearly my resizing from 5.56 to 6mm Mongoose is far more drastic than simple resizing of .223 cases, but if you're looking to eliminate any and all variations, it might be worth a try on a few cases--if you're getting any variation in head space at all.

    Something else you might try is pay your precision buddy to anneal a batch of 25 or so cases and then compare the results of them on the next firing with some previously multi-fired and resized cases. Ideally both sets of cases would be from the same batch. If the newly annealed cases ballistics fall into line with your expectations, you can overnight an annealing set up to your house.
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  5. #79
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    I measure a number of my cases (headspacing) with a RCBS headspace micrometer. My die headspaces very consistently. I believe the worse I've seen is about 0.002" and more typically right on or within 0.001".

    It's hard to believe a match grade die is sizing so erratically that it's producing 100 or so fps spreads. But, it's certainly worth looking at. I'll do 25 cases and measure the headspace - that seems like a worthwhile thing to do/know!
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  6. #80
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    My head hurts again...Your reloading posts @Tangle are like a train wreck...I know I shouldn't look but I cannot help myself.

    Glad you're on your way to finding reloading peace!
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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I measure a number of my cases (headspacing) with a RCBS headspace micrometer. My die headspaces very consistently. I believe the worse I've seen is about 0.002" and more typically right on or within 0.001".

    It's hard to believe a match grade die is sizing so erratically that it's producing 100 or so fps spreads. But, it's certainly worth looking at. I'll do 25 cases and measure the headspace - that seems like a worthwhile thing to do/know!
    I wouldn't think it was the die as much as differences in the brass hardness and the amount of "spring back" it may cause. The die "should" be repetitive in dimensions, the reaction of the brass not so much. Each firing/resizing cycle will change it slightly, the use of annealing.

    I've read of annealing being more for extending case life than neck tension, etc., but I imagine it would have an effect on all aspects of the shoulder/neck area. I think annealing after every firing is a bit obsessive. I've always felt it was cheaper to buy more brass than invest in a quality annealing machine, but for those who are really into that, they probably feel differently.
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  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Your die should be fine, but occasionally they arenít.
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  9. #83
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    Well here's the results - the Hornady Match die and the RCBS SB die. The good stuff, avg, max, etc. are at the bottom. It is interesting that the RCBS has the smaller ES, but the Hornady has the smaller SD. Certainly worth the time and effort to check; glad I did this.

    I don't see anything that would even come close to accounting for the velocity extremes I see, but at least we know what it's not!

    It doesn't show up in the table but the Hornady has a variation, i.e. max length to min length of about 0.283%; the RCBS has a variation of about 0.212%.

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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Your die should be fine, but occasionally they arenít.
    It's worth checking!
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  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoDiablo View Post
    My head hurts again...Your reloading posts @Tangle are like a train wreck...I know I shouldn't look but I cannot help myself.

    Glad you're on your way to finding reloading peace!
    LOL! My job is not to drive the train, my job is to clean up the wrecks!
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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    LOL! My job is not to drive the train, my job is to clean up the wrecks!
    (Note he did not mention causing the train wreck.)
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  13. #87
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Well here's the results - the Hornady Match die and the RCBS SB die. The good stuff, avg, max, etc. are at the bottom. It is interesting that the RCBS has the smaller ES, but the Hornady has the smaller SD. Certainly worth the time and effort to check; glad I did this.

    I don't see anything that would even come close to accounting for the velocity extremes I see, but at least we know what it's not!

    It doesn't show up in the table but the Hornady has a variation, i.e. max length to min length of about 0.283%; the RCBS has a variation of about 0.212%.

    Load up the brass that was sized in the rcbs die and shoot it! Not unfired brass of course!
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  14. #88
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    Of all things...

    Just last evening I received an email from Midsouth Shooters Supply. Among the ads was an article entitled, "RELOADERS CORNER: Velocity Consistency, Part One".

    Here are some excerpts from the article from Midsouth Shooters Supply:

    "I got a letter just before doing this article asking about reasons for seeing high velocity deviations. This fellow, a loyal reader of my books, was using the same component combinations and tooling advice I take myself and also publish, and not getting good results. As a matter of fact, his results were horrid. He was seeing deviations, shot-to-shot, in the vicinity of 100 feet per second (fps), plus. Thatís huge...

    100 fps difference is not likely to come from a propellant charge level variance...

    My letter-writerís huge velocity deviations were solved by a change of primer, and, mostly, a box of fresh primers. I kind of knew that was the component-culprit because he was having the same results or effects from different propellants..."


    Wow! Maybe double wow, because there are a couple of things here. In the article, he talks about not leaving powder in the dispenser or primers in a non-airtight container. He says when we finish loading, we should remove the powder from the dispenser, whatever that may be, and return it to an airtight container and the same goes for the primers - airtight container.

    I'm guilty of both offenses, I leave powder in my hopper, but it's always in an air conditioned environment, and I minimize how much powder I put in the hopper. I put enough to fill the cases with a little left over, not enough to do another set so more powder would have to be added to that. However, I load almost every day so the powder rarely sets out more than a day or two - and again it is in an air conditioned environment.

    IF he's right that primers need to be kept in an airtight container, then there's my problem - all my primers are bad because I leave them in the original boxes/containers they were shipped in. He says you should remove the primers from the feed tube and place them in a airtight container.

    OTOH, I think of all the boxes of primers on retailer's shelves NOT in airtight containers. Air conditioned environment? What about on the delivery truck, they setting in air conditioning in the truck?

    Then, to me, he waffles a bit when he says, "...velocity deviations were solved by a change of primer, [U]and, mostly, a box of fresh primers...". The troubling part here is, "... mostly, a box of fresh primers...". Was it actually changing brands of primers or was it that the primers were fresh. It just seems like he's saying the fresh primers did the trick - "mostly".

    I did a search to see who it was that suggested I try different primers but couldn't find the post. But, in response to that post I bought four different brands of primers the next day, Remington 7-1/2, CCI 450, CCI 400, and Winchester WSR. They're still setting unopened and untested - that will change - soon!

    My PRSB also recommended a primer change. He said he saw his ES/SD drop significantly when he switched to Federal GM205M primers - guess what I was using when he told me that? Federal GM205M primers.

    Although, I will try each of the four primer brands, starting today, it is quite possible the author of the referenced article had the person switch from whatever he was using to Federal GM205M primers - or it could have been from any brand to any brand, and then there's that "fresh" qualifier.

    Anyway, I've got some work to do; my plan is to shoot my normal 5x5 ladder using each brand of primer and see what happens - that's 200 rounds just to test primers. That pales in comparison to how many I've shot trying to resolve this problem.

    And, I'm out of 77 gr SMKs, but I have plenty of Nosler 77 gr CC bullets. But then, that's changing two things at once and that can change the whole test outcomes in a direction that's not helpful. But, the good news is, I'll have 500 77 gr SMKs arriving today - just not in time to load them and go to the range today

    And, it looks like I'll be using Sig cases. My Lapua is getting up in reloads, my Hornady's aren't clean, and I've been getting good results with Sigs. At least for primer testing all the cases will be one brand, that should be fine.
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  15. #89
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    I admire your tenacity. No doubt, you will get this sorted out.
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  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by airslot View Post
    I admire your tenacity. No doubt, you will get this sorted out.
    Many thanks! I hope so!
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