Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88 - Page 7

Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88

This is a discussion on Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88 within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Here's the test layout for testing primers. Also note that I have weighed the cases, measured the Case Base To Shoulder, and Case OverAll Length. ...

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Thread: Reloading: I don't want you to get all excited yet...interesting update POST 88

  1. #91
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    Here's the test layout for testing primers. Also note that I have weighed the cases, measured the Case Base To Shoulder, and Case OverAll Length. In addition, I have calculated the stats for each 5 shot charge and overall stats for the weights, CBTS, and COAL.

    The cases are ready; primed with Winchester WSR primers - oops! I see I'm showing Federal GM205M primers in the table - I'll correct that later.



    I'm thinking about numbering the cases and re-weighing them after cleaning to see if there is some residual combustion products in the case changing the weight/volume.

    Addendums:
    I could not use the RCBS sizing die. It bottomed out - hard - on the ram before I could get the shoulder to 0.003" under chamber size. So, I used the Hornady Match die instead. If you look at the table above, and can read it , it shows that for 25 cases, the CBTS varies by only 0.0015".
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  2. #92
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    If primers were your only problem you wouldnít have a consistent decline in performance based on number of firings through brass.

    As far as your rcbs die, if you didnít, you might want to do a google search for using the rcbs die. I donít use Hornady does, but I think they are longer? So the rcbs die may have to be set up different, but it should be doable. Are you bottoming our on the lock ring or the die itself into the press?
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    ...As far as your rcbs die, if you didnít, you might want to do a google search for using the rcbs die. I donít use Hornady does, but I think they are longer? So the rcbs die may have to be set up different, but it should be doable. Are you bottoming our on the lock ring or the die itself into the press?
    Thanks!

    The bottom of the die is contacting the shell holder in the ram. I thought it was a hard to size case and tried doing a cycle without a case in the shell holder, The cam-over was way too heavy, and the case shoulder still wasn't where it should be.

    BTW, since I was out of 77 SMKs I thought I'd just play today and loaded up some Hornady 73 gr ELDs. They were awful!
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  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Thanks!

    The bottom of the die is contacting the shell holder in the ram. I thought it was a hard to size case and tried doing a cycle without a case in the shell holder, The cam-over was way too heavy, and the case shoulder still wasn't where it should be.

    BTW, since I was out of 77 SMKs I thought I'd just play today and loaded up some Hornady 73 gr ELDs. They were awful!
    If the die is hitting the shell holder, canít you just back it out? I canít see what you can do maybe Iím picturing something different.
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  6. #95
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    I'm going to withhold judgement on this primer theory until you can run your testing. If this proves out, then I think you're back to something you cannot control unless you have a source that provides primers fresh off the assembly line.

    Only recently have I bought primers in bulk--bulk, in my case, being defined as a 1000-count carton--so long-term storage conditions and age weren't really considerations for me. I've bought the 1000-count boxes because I'm doing more reloading for my Mongoose than ever before with other guns.

    I don't think primers are at risk of "going bad" if kept in an air-conditioned storage. No maker that I know of ships their primers in hermetically sealed boxes, so the simple fact is--they have been exposed to the elements since manufacture.

    Now that does not mean one should keep them in the backyard storage shed where humidity drips off the ceiling, but inside the air-conditioned house should be fine for a long period of time. In fact, "sealed" containers may do more harm than good unless some type of desiccant in the container is included. As for just "aging," I cringe a bit when I hear of those who mention have "thousands" of primers stored "just in case."
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  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    If the die is hitting the shell holder, canít you just back it out? I canít see what you can do maybe Iím picturing something different.
    I believe he's saying he needs a bit more resizing but the die is stopped by the shell holder. It may be a mismatch of shell holder and die. I know my Hornady and RCBS shell holders differ in external dimensions. An option would be to machine a few .001s off the top surface of the shell holders. I've heard of that being done before.
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  8. #97
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    On the primer thing...I donít know of anyone who keeps their primers in airtight containers. Primers arenít shipped in air tight containers. I believe that if the elements were that much of an issue, like they are with powder, thereíd be airtight packaging for primers.

    In fact, an airtight container around an explosive would be a bomb if one went off, right?
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  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    If the die is hitting the shell holder, canít you just back it out? I canít see what you can do maybe Iím picturing something different.
    The problem is the die bottoms out before the shoulder gets set where it needs to be.

    I set the die by running the ram fully up and then screwing the die in until it made contact with the shell holder. I backed it off about a quarter turn. I measured the shoulder of a case at +0.003". It needs to be about -0.003" for my AR. I put the case in the shell holder and cycled the press. I measured the case shoulder again and it had not changed. I lowered the die a bit and cycled it again. I repeated this process until the shoulder was at 0.000" and at that point the die was contacting the shell holder pretty hard and the case shoulder was still too long. The only way to get the case shoulder shorter would be to lower the die a bit more, but it's already hitting harder than I'm comfortable with.

    I rotated the turret to the Hornady sizing die, cycled the press and with little effort the case came out at -0.003".
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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I believe he's saying he needs a bit more resizing but the die is stopped by the shell holder. It may be a mismatch of shell holder and die. I know my Hornady and RCBS shell holders differ in external dimensions. An option would be to machine a few .001s off the top surface of the shell holders. I've heard of that being done before.
    Yeah, that makes more sense now. Iíve never tried to run a mix of dies before so thatís not something Iíve ever thought about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    The problem is the die bottoms out before the shoulder gets set where it needs to be.

    I set the die by running the ram fully up and then screwing the die in until it made contact with the shell holder. I backed it off about a quarter turn. I measured the shoulder of a case at +0.003". It needs to be about -0.003" for my AR. I put the case in the shell holder and cycled the press. I measured the case shoulder again and it had not changed. I lowered the die a bit and cycled it again. I repeated this process until the shoulder was at 0.000" and at that point the die was contacting the shell holder pretty hard and the case shoulder was still too long. The only way to get the case shoulder shorter would be to lower the die a bit more, but it's already hitting harder than I'm comfortable with.

    I rotated the turret to the Hornady sizing die, cycled the press and with little effort the case came out at -0.003".
    Ok, that makes sense. Thatís not what I thought the issue was.
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  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    The problem is the die bottoms out before the shoulder gets set where it needs to be.

    I set the die by running the ram fully up and then screwing the die in until it made contact with the shell holder. I backed it off about a quarter turn. I measured the shoulder of a case at +0.003". It needs to be about -0.003" for my AR. I put the case in the shell holder and cycled the press. I measured the case shoulder again and it had not changed. I lowered the die a bit and cycled it again. I repeated this process until the shoulder was at 0.000" and at that point the die was contacting the shell holder pretty hard and the case shoulder was still too long. The only way to get the case shoulder shorter would be to lower the die a bit more, but it's already hitting harder than I'm comfortable with.

    I rotated the turret to the Hornady sizing die, cycled the press and with little effort the case came out at -0.003".
    Iíd grind the top of the shell holder before Iíd mess with the die.
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  12. #101
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    As for leaving powder in the hopper, I just don't. Never did. Not out of a concern for turning the hopper yellow, which it has after 45 years of use anyhow, I don't because I feel the sealed container is best for it. My original reloading station was an un-A/C'd storage room in the carport of base housing. Then it was basements of base housing followed by the basement of my house in WA--none with A/C-- and now the kitchen counter--but at least it's in the A/C. I may have left powder in my dropper once overnight, but otherwise, back into the jug it goes.
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  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by StripesDude View Post
    Iíd grind the top of the shell holder before Iíd mess with the die.
    .005-.010 won't harm the strength of the shell holder and give plenty of clearance.

    Hey @Tangle . Ever seen the Sinclair die shims? I use them to make .001 adjustments to my die setting. A lot easier than trial-and-error adjustments. The only issue I have with mine is the set I have goes to .003 at the thinnest (.003-.010 thicknesses). I don't know if I lost some or what.
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  14. #103
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    About the primer claim: I agree with you guys. I just don't see primers stored in air conditioning as a problem. Maybe the primer issue described in the article was due to them being stored in high humidity for extended periods of time.
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  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    .005-.010 won't harm the strength of the shell holder and give plenty of clearance.

    Hey @Tangle . Ever seen the Sinclair die shims? I use them to make .001 adjustments to my die setting. A lot easier than trial-and-error adjustments. The only issue I have with mine is the set I have goes to .003 at the thinnest (.003-.010 thicknesses). I don't know if I lost some or what.
    That would be a cool way to do that! Where do you get the shims?

    As for the RCBS die, I had the bottoming problem with the Redding shell holder (Redding T7 press) so I switched to a RCBS shell holder and the same thing happens. Well, I did get the shoulder to about -0.001", but the cam over was just a too much. The Hornady Match bushing die does not have the bottoming problem.
    We don't have a gun problem in the US, We have a people problem.
    The problem we have is people that want to kill large numbers innocent people
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  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    That would be a cool way to do that! Where do you get the shims?
    I don't recall, but here's a site.

    https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...prod33711.aspx

    It says 7 shims and I have .003-.010, so maybe I have them all. What I did, and may not work for you, is start with the die kissing the shell holder, add the .010 shim, and resize a case. Measure and adjust from there, replacing shims going up/down as needed.

    I found resizing fired cases using the .004 shim works for me, converting 5.56 case needs the .003 shim to get to the desired size. With the .003 shim, the die will still touch the shell holder without a case. They are marked with notches corresponding to size. It won't help when the dis is mashing into the holder and needs more, but for .001 adjustments with a better mated die/shell holder they're nice.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
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