Fighting Tyranny C3I

Fighting Tyranny C3I

This is a discussion on Fighting Tyranny C3I within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The following is all hypothetical, just for discussion. I am not proposing anything. We have all heard, and hopefully most of us believe, that part ...

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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Fighting Tyranny C3I

    The following is all hypothetical, just for discussion. I am not proposing anything.

    We have all heard, and hopefully most of us believe, that part of the RTKABA is to fight tyranny. Tyranny can take many forms: crime, foreign invasion, etc. But the obvious worst case is the hypothetical that citizens might have to take up arms against the government if the government completely abandons the Constitution, a coup d’etat, or at the very least, the government completely violates the BOR and starts gun confiscation.

    We see posts on this site, and elsewhere, of “Molon Labe” and “From my cold dead hands.” I am all for that ideal. I hope the citizenry never has to actually take the government back, but I would like to think they could. We have many more guns than the government and many more people trained to use them. My numbers may not be perfect here, but I think it is something like 100-150 million gun owners, 17 million of which are serious enough to have carry permits and something like 8-10 million with “military style” rifles in private hands. Whereas the government could probably only field 1-2 million police and military at most to do confiscations, and probably not even that much. Some of them hopefully would refuse to do it. But as a former military officer, I also see there is something the government has we don’t have, that is absolutely essential to success: organization, specifically C3I (Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence.)

    I am not a big history buff, so I may have a detail or two wrong here, but it seems to me the Minutemen who started the Revolution had such organization. They were experienced militiamen with combat experience who drilled regularly and had planned for war with the British. They had an intelligence system set up to learn of the British approach via Paul Revere’s ride. Once they were subsumed into the Continental Army under Washington, there was an even clearer and more formal C3I.

    Here’s what troubles me. Where is our organization, our C3I, going to come from if the worst happens? Because if we don’t have it, even though we would have the numbers, they could pick us off one by one. The will be taking our guns out of our cold dead hands, and repeat as necessary. Whereas with organization, with C3I, we could theoretically operate like a true guerrilla military force and I think we could be pretty darn effective.

    An organization I find interesting is the Missouri Militia. They are perfectly legal, but independent of the state government. They drill, and each member has to have a required list of equipment and arms. They volunteer to help state and local authorities out during disasters, but they are under their own control. They adhere strictly to the law, but they are pledged to support the Constitution.

    So any ideas? In theory, how could gun owners be organized into citizen soldiers effectively? And when should we start putting such a plan in place? Who would be at the head of it? I think a lot could be done in advance that would be perfectly legal under current law. The fact that such an organization existed might even be a deterrent to ever having to need it.

    Again, just for intellectual discussion...
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    Not sure you’ll get much response to your thoughts in an open forum......
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    Good thoughts! I agree, although historically we were far from capable as a fighting force. Many here know and understand the USA military history better than I, but the Continentals were lucky the British were arrogant and over confident, and we had some time on our side.

    We were also lucky to have some brilliant men at the helm, that through divine intervention, a lack of options, skill, brilliance, British hubris, British arrogance or British laziness, muddled through and won decisive victories at tipping points.

    For a nice overview, if you care, 1776 is a great book that really sets the stage for more reading.

    To answer your question more directly, we have numerous former military of various ranks all over the USA ready willing and able in my estimation. I think the officer ranks down to new recruit ranks will fill quickly.

    A bunch of the aforementioned are very frustrated and ready to act if the need arises. Let us hope it does not, but to paraphrase someone, if it must, let in be in my lifetime, to spare my children.
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    An interesting question indeed! I'll have to give this one some thought.

    Initially, one has to ask what it's mission is to be. Ultimately fighting , of course but what kind and what size units. In the regular army we know that the vast majority of functions fall into the support category. I think in a militia the individual units would have to operate more independently so we have to ask what support functions can be handled at squad and platoon level. Hmm...It would necessarily be asymmetrical warfare.

    It seems to me the most difficult question would be, who is to be in charge. Next, I think, secure communications would be paramount. That would include radio, phone/text, and internet, expertise. Initially a phone tree set up would work Hopefully, there would be someone with the military training to step into that role or at least someone with some organizational background. The exact training and logistical needs would be dictated by the function of any given unit. So, that would drive the training goals.

    Getting a brand new militia up and running from scratch would be a challenge as all positions on the organization chart would be empty. The easy part would be defining the skills set of a soldier; most of the Field manuals are freely available.
    "...as politics in Washington and elsewhere grows increasingly un-moored from reality, humanist wisdom provides us with one final consolation: There is no greater lesson from the past than the intractability of human folly." Heather Mac Donald

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    ...historically we were far from capable as a fighting force...the Continentals were lucky the British were arrogant and over confident, and we had some time on our side...To answer your question more directly, we have numerous former military of various ranks all over the USA ready willing and able in my estimation. I think the officer ranks down to new recruit ranks will fill quickly...
    The two biggest things in our favor, against the British, were their incredibly long and inefficient supply and replacements chain, and the attempt by the British to coerce American conformity to the crown by force of arms and by brutality.
    As we did in Vietnam, when we tried to force "hearts and minds," the behavior of the British regulars turned the locals into enemies and enemy sympathizers.

    It is my belief that, if our government turns against the Constitution and us, the only military force the government will have will be those "regulars" who will be susceptible to bribery. And that bribery will involve power and the chance to be brutal, more than it might involve money and goods.
    I suggest that the National-Socialist SA (Sturm Abteilung) is a good example of what our citizens might have to face, from the military personnel that I posit as being bribed. It would be gang behavior of the worst hyena-pack kind, perpetrated by bullies who, individually, would be easy to overcome -- but who would never face anybody individually.

    See today's Venezuela, for a time line.
    The government did register, and then confiscate, personally-owned weapons. And then, only the police and military were armed and powerful.
    Next came vastly inflated money and (maybe artificial) food scarcity. Soon, the only way to eat was to either join the government's military, or to toe the government's political and social "line."
    The only people in the Venezuelan Army now are bully boys, hyena-pack cowards, and people too hungry to care about morality.
    And the Venezuelan people have lost any ability to fight back effectively.

    Wanna rape, pillage, and burn? Join the Venezuelan Army!
    Steve
    Retired Leathersmith and Practical Shooter

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    The following is all hypothetical, just for discussion. I am not proposing anything.

    We have all heard, and hopefully most of us believe, that part of the RTKABA is to fight tyranny. Tyranny can take many forms: crime, foreign invasion, etc. But the obvious worst case is the hypothetical that citizens might have to take up arms against the government if the government completely abandons the Constitution, a coup d’etat, or at the very least, the government completely violates the BOR and starts gun confiscation.

    We see posts on this site, and elsewhere, of “Molon Labe” and “From my cold dead hands.” I am all for that ideal. I hope the citizenry never has to actually take the government back, but I would like to think they could. We have many more guns than the government and many more people trained to use them. My numbers may not be perfect here, but I think it is something like 100-150 million gun owners, 17 million of which are serious enough to have carry permits and something like 8-10 million with “military style” rifles in private hands. Whereas the government could probably only field 1-2 million police and military at most to do confiscations, and probably not even that much. Some of them hopefully would refuse to do it. But as a former military officer, I also see there is something the government has we don’t have, that is absolutely essential to success: organization, specifically C3I (Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence.)

    I am not a big history buff, so I may have a detail or two wrong here, but it seems to me the Minutemen who started the Revolution had such organization. They were experienced militiamen with combat experience who drilled regularly and had planned for war with the British. They had an intelligence system set up to learn of the British approach via Paul Revere’s ride. Once they were subsumed into the Continental Army under Washington, there was an even clearer and more formal C3I.

    Here’s what troubles me. Where is our organization, our C3I, going to come from if the worst happens? Because if we don’t have it, even though we would have the numbers, they could pick us off one by one. The will be taking our guns out of our cold dead hands, and repeat as necessary. Whereas with organization, with C3I, we could theoretically operate like a true guerrilla military force and I think we could be pretty darn effective.

    An organization I find interesting is the Missouri Militia. They are perfectly legal, but independent of the state government. They drill, and each member has to have a required list of equipment and arms. They volunteer to help state and local authorities out during disasters, but they are under their own control. They adhere strictly to the law, but they are pledged to support the Constitution.

    So any ideas? In theory, how could gun owners be organized into citizen soldiers effectively? And when should we start putting such a plan in place? Who would be at the head of it? I think a lot could be done in advance that would be perfectly legal under current law. The fact that such an organization existed might even be a deterrent to ever having to need it.

    Again, just for intellectual discussion...
    The primary flaw as I see it involves an over-reliance on, "We'll figure it out when the SHTF," coupled with "Yes, let's get together and discuss this" sessions which wind up being 8 hours of them trying to reinvent the wheel instead of one hour briefing them on the basics of a sound Comm Plan.

    In fact, I spent three hours over the weekend in an informal mutual debrief with a retired USA officer (I'm a ret USAF officer) wherein we pretty much fleshed out a full AAR (after action report) following a recent political activity in our state.

    Our greatest weakness as a community, by far, involves intelligent, highly-motivated, lean-forward individuals who're nonetheless lacking the education and experience with respect to much of the military infrastructure which military operators like you and I used throughout a number of operations, conflicts and wars.

    What's sad is it doesn't take long to teach civilians the basics, provided you're in an environment where they'll listen. Back when I ran an outdoor adventure group, we'd play Capture the Flag and I'd distribute FRS radios, primarily for safety, but also so each team could coordinate with others beyond visual range. I kept the last two radios as referees so I could communicate with both teams, if necessary.

    It took all of about 10 minutes to explain the basic comm plan. Meanwhile, I once sat through an agonizing preppers meeting where they spend several hours trying to figure out a basic comm plan similar to what I briefed my Capture the Flag players. They weren't stupid. They were simply inexperienced. No idea or clue of how to use bullseyes, radial/dme, basic code tables, etc. My gamers very quickly picked up lingo like, "Tiger 4, Mother 320 at 250, sighted 2 Grouper 200 SW of my position.

    Tiger: Team A
    4: 4th member of team
    Mother: Where the flag was set by Team A (we used GPS)
    320 at 250: 320 degrees at 250 yards from Mother
    Grouper: Team B
    2: Quantity of Grouper
    200: yards
    SW: Southwest

    Etc. Easy peasy when they've learned the basics of navigating by compass and top in a previous class. Hey, EVERYONE should know how to navigate by compass and topo! I taught my son when he was nine, during the same summer I taught him how to safely handle and shoot a firearm.

    Back to your question:

    Here’s what troubles me. Where is our organization, our C3I, going to come from if the worst happens? Because if we don’t have it, even though we would have the numbers, they could pick us off one by one. The will be taking our guns out of our cold dead hands, and repeat as necessary. Whereas with organization, with C3I, we could theoretically operate like a true guerrilla military force and I think we could be pretty darn effective.
    I honestly believe the some 5-15 million prior members of the military will step forward and at least attempt to do what we do best: Get 'er done. Where like-minded civilians fall into step, things will proceed smoothly. Where we encounter people like those that were in that preppers group, I'm not going to waste my time as they try to reinvent the wheel.

    To be rather blunt, however, I know far too many people in local, county, state and federal law enforcement to believe that any but a handful of them would be willing to follow grossly un-Constitutional orders. Just as the media paints a rather biased picture on many issues, so, too they paint a rather biased picture of most law enforcement. In fact, cases which went awry, like Ruby Ridge, Waco, and the Bundy stand-off (which easily could have wound up a mess), were more anomalies than representative of most governmental law-enforcement types, many of whom are prior military.

    Over...
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1911A1 View Post
    See today's Venezuela, for a time line.
    The government did register, and then confiscate, personally-owned weapons. And then, only the police and military were armed and powerful.
    Next came vastly inflated money and (maybe artificial) food scarcity. Soon, the only way to eat was to either join the government's military, or to toe the government's political and social "line."
    The only people in the Venezuelan Army now are bully boys, hyena-pack cowards, and people too hungry to care about morality.
    And the Venezuelan people have lost any ability to fight back effectively.

    Wanna rape, pillage, and burn? Join the Venezuelan Army!
    Save for guns, those in the United States Military have almost nothing in common with those in Venezuela's army. Hunters have guns. The people of this forum have guns. Does that mean they'll behave like Venezuela's Army?

    Heck, no.

    We're Oathkeepers, beholden to the U.S. Constitution. They're not. Massive difference.

    As for America's various LEOs, I know many of them hold true to their oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic," but how many of them actually would if they were being told to violate their oaths?

    I honestly don't know.
    Would you enjoy spending significant amounts of conducting research and conveying carefully worded discourse when others trample it under their feet, even to the point of deleting entire threads? Of course not. Me either. Matthew 7:6

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    @since9 : Really good points. If I took your meaning correctly, I agree that on the positive side, we have the ex-military talent and knowledge out there. But I also agree that waiting until we need it might be too late. I do wish more states had "true" militia groups like MO does. And by "true" I mean well organized, equipped and trained honest, law abiding citizen soldiers that are not under government control, but also not political kooks. The way I see it, their drills and even their volunteering for disaster relief help exercise their C3I in a positive. legal way, but that capability could also be used to combat tyranny if it ever came to that.

    I also worry that even if this 5-15 million vets you mention step forward, there is still no focal point, no structure, no protocol for them linking up. I think small groups could develop post-SHTF, but nothing like a national network, or even statewide networks in most states. It would be a bit like the French Resistance in WWII. They had the people, but it took an outside organization like the British SOE to pull them together and make them effective. And even then they took heavy losses due to the limits of C3I in that repressive environment. Had they developed more of that infrastructure before they were occupied, I think they would have been miles ahead.
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    You don’t think groups like the MO Militia are under surveillance by the government and would be the first targeted for elimination if things went south in this country?
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    The problem with having centralized, formal command structures...is that they can be compromised and/or targeted.

    Hypothetically, if a blatantly unconstitutional law was passed, say to confiscate guns, and local law enforcement agencies actually tried to enforce it, what would happen? Well, they would catch a few people by surprise. But...word would spread. Even if comunications were shut down, people would meet at local gun stores, coffee shops, bars, diners, etc and the word would get out.

    Folks would not stay awake all night, waiting to see if they were the next 3AM target for the local SWAT team. They would get together, head to the police HQ, and have a nice talk with the chief, sheriff, or whoever was in charge. Let's also not forget that many of "us" know the local police...we're their neighbors, we know who they are, and where they live. Hopefully those sit-down would remind those who needed reminding what we the people think of unconstitutional laws.

    There would be no pitched battles in the woods. This would be fought in the town halls, and police barracks, all across the land.

    Hopefully, most peace officers would recall their duty to the constitution and to the people, and not to the law...especially when those laws are unlawful. "I was just following orders" is never an excuse.

    Of course, this is all very hypothetical. If a grossly unconstitutional law is passed, it will immediately be challenged in court...and hopefully a smart judge would issue an injunction against enforcing the law until such time as the case can be heard, for the express purpose of keeping things from escalating in the streets.
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    Heck, I'll sign up just for the Fighting Tyranny C3I ball cap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...If a grossly unconstitutional law is passed, it will immediately be challenged in court...and...a smart judge would issue an injunction against enforcing the law until such time as the case can be heard...[emphasis added]
    Immediately? Not hardly!

    First, a plaintiff with "standing" must be found to have been "injured" by the unconstitutional law.
    Then, the law has to be challenged; and then it has to be fought up the ladder of the court system.
    County court, state appeals court, state supreme court, federal appeals court, and then, finally, the US Supreme Court.
    It takes a long, long time, a lot of work, and a whole lot of money to get to the Supremes.
    And then they may decide not to hear the case.

    But you're right about the possibility of injunctive relief, at least until some final loss in the appellate system.
    However, the government may still act in bad faith, and ignore the injunction.
    And then what do you do?
    Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockymonster View Post
    You don’t think groups like the MO Militia are under surveillance by the government and would be the first targeted for elimination if things went south in this country?
    You don't think the MO Militia has thought of that? My guess is they have plans of their own. Also if you've followed what is going on in MO, the feds won't get much help from state and local LE in MO. They will be on their own. And look how bad they screwed up Ruby Ridge and Waco, which were small by comparison.

    The real point is, if there were a lot more groups like that, it would compound the problem for the government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    @since9 : Really good points.
    Thanks!

    I also worry that even if this 5-15 million vets you mention step forward, there is still no focal point, no structure, no protocol for them linking up. I think small groups could develop post-SHTF, but nothing like a national network, or even statewide networks in most states. It would be a bit like the French Resistance in WWII. They had the people, but it took an outside organization like the British SOE to pull them together and make them effective. And even then they took heavy losses due to the limits of C3I in that repressive environment. Had they developed more of that infrastructure before they were occupied, I think they would have been miles ahead.
    I agree completely that prior preparation putting together what would essentially be an O-Plan and exercising it periodically would be the best way to ensure the masses "knew the drill."

    In the case of World War II France, many of the Frenchman who could have lead the resistance were identified by the Germans and either incarcerated or shot, possibly on the basis of such records.

    Thus, pre-organizing might not be the best approach after all.

    On the other hand, if you put a bunch of silver bars in a room, it takes about 11.3 seconds before they know their respective dates of rank and who's in charge... :)

    It wouldn't take long for a bunch of retired and former members of the military to regroup. We're pretty darn good at it, in fact.
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