Pistol Caliber Carbine - Page 7

Pistol Caliber Carbine

This is a discussion on Pistol Caliber Carbine within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by G-man* Well, right up until you ask it to do real rifle stuff at ranges beyond 100 yards. OK, like what? Are ...

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Thread: Pistol Caliber Carbine

  1. #91
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    Well, right up until you ask it to do real rifle stuff at ranges beyond 100 yards.
    OK, like what? Are you saying that a 30-30 is a long range cartridge?
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    My 45 Colt carbine handload with a 300grn XTP is turning between 1800-2000fps depending on what powder I use.
    There isn't much in North America that couldn't be taken with those kind of ballistics.
    That's why I like the 44 magnum. I can launch anything from a 180 grain to a 300 grain.
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  3. #93
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    OK, like what? Are you saying that a 30-30 is a long range cartridge?
    It is certainly a longer range cartridge than a 357 Magnum. It would take a pretty pedestrian 30-30 load to be considered the same as a 357 magnum, and every ballistic table will bear this out very clearly.

    Sure, the 357 from a rifle is a different animal than when fired from a handgun, giving anywhere between 300-500 fps more scoot juice. Certainly a logical choice for a short range longgun.

    But beyond that, the 30-30 is vastly superior in every way; this is not even debatable.

    So within the realm of a strictly short range rifle for SD purposes, yes, it is a feasible choice.

    However, it WILL NOT, do EVERYTHING a 30-30 will do outside of that scope of usage.
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  5. #94
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    It is certainly a longer range cartridge than a 357 Magnum. It would take a pretty pedestrian 30-30 load to be considered the same as a 357 magnum, and every ballistic table will bear this out very clearly.

    Sure, the 357 from a rifle is a different animal than when fired from a handgun, giving anywhere between 300-500 fps more scoot juice. Certainly a logical choice for a short range longgun.

    But beyond that, the 30-30 is vastly superior in every way; this is not even debatable.

    So within the realm of a strictly short range rifle for SD purposes, yes, it is a feasible choice.

    However, it WILL NOT, do EVERYTHING a 30-30 will do outside of that scope of usage.
    You are correct, it can't drive a stick shift.

    Vastly superior? Nah, a little better, a 30-06 is vastly better, than both.
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  6. #95
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    You are correct, it can't drive a stick shift.

    Vastly superior? Nah, a little better, a 30-06 is vastly better, than both.
    Iíd say the difference between the 30 WCF and the 06 is about the same as the difference in the 30WCF and the 357 Magnum.

    Both the 30-30 and 06 are still supersonic at 300 yards, while the 357 is buried in the dirt by that time.

    I donít even think there is a 357 mag load that matches the energy of a 5.56 at 100 yards. so yeah, I think the 357 carbine is a great plinker, short range vermin, and short range defensive carbine, outside of these, itís definitely not on par with any 30 caliber rifle.

    I have all 3, a 357, 44, 30wcf, , and I can say for certain, for anything beyond 100 yards, the rifle calibers are superior to pistol calibers fired in rifles.
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  7. #96
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    Iíd say the difference between the 30 WCF and the 06 is about the same as the difference in the 30WCF and the 357 Magnum.

    Both the 30-30 and 06 are still supersonic at 300 yards, while the 357 is buried in the dirt by that time.

    I donít even think there is a 357 mag load that matches the energy of a 5.56 at 100 yards. so yeah, I think the 357 carbine is a great plinker, short range vermin, and short range defensive carbine, outside of these, itís definitely not on par with any 30 caliber rifle.

    I have all 3, a 357, 44, 30wcf, , and I can say for certain, for anything beyond 100 yards, the rifle calibers are superior to pistol calibers fired in rifles.
    But we are talking about pistol caliber carbines. Which are by definition short range solutions. I offered to comparison as it involves muzzle energy, not long range performance.

    Well since there are so many loads to compare I will pick 2; A 55 grn 223. fmj will have roughly 929 FPE @ 100 yards.
    A 125 grn 357 mag (buffalo Bore) will have roughly 1073 FPE @ 100 yards when fired from a Marlin.
    A 150 grn 30-30 will have roughly 1350 FPE @ 100 yards
    And because I never said the 357 would outperform the 30-30 A 270 grn 44 mag(buffalo bore) fired from a Marlin will have roughly 1277 fpe @ 100 yards.

    The big difference there is that the 44 bullet is much bigger and heavier. Performance is not all about muzzle energy, but you already knew that, you just wanted to play.
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  8. #97
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    I do know that the .44 Magnum is pretty "horsey" when fired from a 20-inch barreled carbine.

    A friend had collected all the Winchester carbines, focusing on one in each caliber made from 1894 to about the mid-1980s. He had a Model 94 .44 Magnum from the very early 1970s when a small run was made. That run is considered pretty rare. We chronographed it on an occasion. With a full charge of H110 behind a 180 grain Sierra jacketed hollow point, the rifle would clock a smidge over 2200 fps. It's tough to get a 170 grain .30-30 bullet to make 2200 fps from a 20-inch barrel. I know because I've tried.

    The 240 grain Sierra over a near max charge of H110 would yield 1900 fps. Recoil was perceived to be heavier than that of a similar .30-30.

    Out to 100 yards the .44 Magnum's a stomper out of a rifle in anybody's book!
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  9. #98
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post

    The big difference there is that the 44 bullet is much bigger and heavier. Performance is not all about muzzle energy, but you already knew that, you just wanted to play.


    Of course, sometimes I just like to be cantankerous.

    And you are correct when you say the 357 or 44 are hellified cartridges from a carbine.

    For the sake of having a little fun, and, clarification to those who may not be familiar with the ballistics of the 30 WCF, I just wanted to add that info because it can lead to a wrong idea, depending on the intended purpose, thatís why I added that yes, as long as you donít need it to do real rifle work.

    Personally, I prefer my pistol carbines for most things. Like you stated, and correctly so, a 44 Magnum is plenty of mojo for anything I can think of in America within 100 yards.
    I also wouldnít look down my nose at a 357 Maggie either for short range work.
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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post


    Of course, sometimes I just like to be cantankerous.

    And you are correct when you say the 357 or 44 are hellified cartridges from a carbine.

    For the sake of having a little fun, and, clarification to those who may not be familiar with the ballistics of the 30 WCF, I just wanted to add that info because it can lead to a wrong idea, depending on the intended purpose, thatís why I added that yes, as long as you donít need it to do real rifle work.

    Personally, I prefer my pistol carbines for most things. Like you stated, and correctly so, a 44 Magnum is plenty of mojo for anything I can think of in America within 100 yards.
    I also wouldnít look down my nose at a 357 Maggie either for short range work.
    The 44 magnum is my go to if I need anything more than a pistol or 5.56 can do. I don't do long range shooting much anymore.
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  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    I chose other, being an old antiquated traditionalist to me a carbine must be lever action and for caliber either 357 or 44 Mag to use the same ammo as my revolvers.

    https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/big-...case-hardened/
    I agree, but donít forget the .45 Colt.
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  12. #101
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    I do know that the .44 Magnum is pretty "horsey" when fired from a 20-inch barreled carbine.

    A friend had collected all the Winchester carbines, focusing on one in each caliber made from 1894 to about the mid-1980s. He had a Model 94 .44 Magnum from the very early 1970s when a small run was made. That run is considered pretty rare. We chronographed it on an occasion. With a full charge of H110 behind a 180 grain Sierra jacketed hollow point, the rifle would clock a smidge over 2200 fps. It's tough to get a 170 grain .30-30 bullet to make 2200 fps from a 20-inch barrel. I know because I've tried.

    The 240 grain Sierra over a near max charge of H110 would yield 1900 fps. Recoil was perceived to be heavier than that of a similar .30-30.

    Out to 100 yards the .44 Magnum's a stomper out of a rifle in anybody's book!
    I agree.

    But that 44 starts dropping in velocity past 100 to a point of diminishing returns as the distance increases.
    Which isnít so much of a power issue, as it is a trajectory issue.
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  13. #102
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    The 44 magnum is my go to if I need anything more than a pistol or 5.56 can do. I don't do long range shooting much anymore.
    I donít do any long range either. In my environment, 200 yards would be long range. I have a 270 if I need more reach.

    Hell, as I have gotten older, anything beyond 100 yards with open sights is questionable anyway, regardless of cartridge:)
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  14. #103
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    Pistol caliber carbine, I have a couple, first I have the KelTec Sub2000, 40SW, then I have the Beretta CX4, and finally I have the "Planet Of The Apes" in 45 ACP (HiPoint). They are all fun to shoot, but the Sub2000 has more recoil than my bride likes to shoot. But she can make that Hipoint work.
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  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    I agree.

    But that 44 starts dropping in velocity past 100 to a point of diminishing returns as the distance increases.
    Which isnít so much of a power issue, as it is a trajectory issue.
    Yep, that's it. A .44 Magnum, or even a .357 Magnum would still "knock a knot on someone's or something's head" at 300 yards and probably be reasonably accurate as well. Trajectory adds an additional dimension to successfully placing the shot though.
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  16. #105
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    If I could have only one rifle, it would likely be a .30-06. I have rifles in 5.56X44mm, .44 magnum, .45 Colt, .30-30, 7.62X51mm, and .50 Beowulf. The only ones I consider longer range are the 7.62X51mm/.308 rifles. The rest I consider 100 yard rifles.
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