How to lose a Class 3 weapon - Page 2

How to lose a Class 3 weapon

This is a discussion on How to lose a Class 3 weapon within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; §72.21 Personal property and carriers subject to seizure. (a) Personal property may be seized by duly authorized ATF officers for forfeiture to the United States ...

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Thread: How to lose a Class 3 weapon

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array oldIthink's Avatar
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    §72.21 Personal property and carriers subject to seizure.

    (a) Personal property may be seized by duly authorized ATF officers for forfeiture to the United States when involved, used, or intended to be used, in violation of the laws of the United States which ATF officers are empowered to enforce, including Title 18 U.S.C. Chapters 40 (explosives), 44 (firearms), 59 (liquor traffic), 114 (contraband cigarettes), 229 (liquor); Title 26 U.S.C. Chapters 51 (distilled spirits), 52 (tobacco), 53 (firearms); and Title 27 U.S.C. 206 (liquor). Carriers, as defined in §72.11, similarly may be seized when used in violation of Title 49 U.S.C. App., Chapter 11 (transportation, et cetera) of contraband firearms or contraband cigarettes.

    (b) Any action or proceeding for the forfeiture of firearms or ammunition seized under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 shall be commenced within 120 days of such seizure.

    (c) Upon acquittal of the owner or possessor, or the dismissal of the criminal charges against such person other than upon motion of the Government prior to trial, or lapse of or court termination of the restraining order to which such person is subject, firearms or ammunition seized or relinquished under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 shall be returned forthwith to the owner or possessor or to a person delegated by the owner or possessor unless the return of the firearms or ammunition would place the owner or possessor or his delegate in violation of law.

    §479.93 Transfers of firearms to certain persons.

    Where the transfer of a destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle is to be made by a person licensed under the provisions of Title I of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (82 Stat. 1213) to a person not so licensed, the sworn statement required by §478.98 of this chapter shall be attached to and accompany the transfer application required by this subpart.

    §479.105 Transfer and possession of machine guns.

    (b) Machine guns lawfully possessed prior to May 19, 1986. A machine gun possessed in compliance with the provisions of this part prior to May 19, 1986, may continue to be lawfully possessed by the person to whom the machine gun is registered and may, upon compliance with the provisions of this part, be lawfully transferred to and possessed by the transferee.

    This to me says that the smith should have rendered his opinion on getting a NFA permit to own the machine gun. This is only pursuant to Federal laws. The state laws prevail however.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array airslot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldIthink View Post
    §72.21 Personal property and carriers subject to seizure.

    (a) Personal property may be seized by duly authorized ATF officers for forfeiture to the United States when involved, used, or intended to be used, in violation of the laws of the United States which ATF officers are empowered to enforce, including Title 18 U.S.C. Chapters 40 (explosives), 44 (firearms), 59 (liquor traffic), 114 (contraband cigarettes), 229 (liquor); Title 26 U.S.C. Chapters 51 (distilled spirits), 52 (tobacco), 53 (firearms); and Title 27 U.S.C. 206 (liquor). Carriers, as defined in §72.11, similarly may be seized when used in violation of Title 49 U.S.C. App., Chapter 11 (transportation, et cetera) of contraband firearms or contraband cigarettes.

    (b) Any action or proceeding for the forfeiture of firearms or ammunition seized under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 shall be commenced within 120 days of such seizure.

    (c) Upon acquittal of the owner or possessor, or the dismissal of the criminal charges against such person other than upon motion of the Government prior to trial, or lapse of or court termination of the restraining order to which such person is subject, firearms or ammunition seized or relinquished under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 shall be returned forthwith to the owner or possessor or to a person delegated by the owner or possessor unless the return of the firearms or ammunition would place the owner or possessor or his delegate in violation of law.

    §479.93 Transfers of firearms to certain persons.

    Where the transfer of a destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle is to be made by a person licensed under the provisions of Title I of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (82 Stat. 1213) to a person not so licensed, the sworn statement required by §478.98 of this chapter shall be attached to and accompany the transfer application required by this subpart.

    §479.105 Transfer and possession of machine guns.

    (b) Machine guns lawfully possessed prior to May 19, 1986. A machine gun possessed in compliance with the provisions of this part prior to May 19, 1986, may continue to be lawfully possessed by the person to whom the machine gun is registered and may, upon compliance with the provisions of this part, be lawfully transferred to and possessed by the transferee.

    This to me says that the smith should have rendered his opinion on getting a NFA permit to own the machine gun. This is only pursuant to Federal laws. The state laws prevail however.
    You are assuming that the weapon is in the registry. If it isn't, it will be destroyed. Even if it was in the registry, one would still need to go through the whole transfer process. It would be held in a class 3 dealers safe until the paperwork clears, that typically is taking over ten months.
    If it is in the registry, ATF will contact the last registered owner to determine why he is not in possession of it (lost, stolen,??) and return it to him.

    ATF recently recovered multiple NFA items that had been stolen three years ago from a friend of a friend. They were all returned to the registered owner.
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  3. #18
    Ex Member Array oldIthink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBrass45 View Post
    I didn't know it was the duty of the gunsmith to enforce ATF policy. Confiscating someone's property can go really wrong really quickly
    Quote Originally Posted by airslot View Post
    You are assuming that the weapon is in the registry. If it isn't, it will be destroyed. Even if it was in the registry, one would still need to go through the whole transfer process. It would be held in a class 3 dealers safe until the paperwork clears, that typically is taking over ten months.
    If it is in the registry, ATF will contact the last registered owner to determine why he is not in possession of it (lost, stolen,??) and return it to him.

    ATF recently recovered multiple NFA items that had been stolen three years ago from a friend of a friend. They were all returned to the registered owner.
    True, I did assume that from what you said. That the guy said he inherited it from his Dad. I guess the impression I got was that this person with the gun was some clean cut guy that was a pillar of society, wore pleated khakis, and polo shirt when in fact he might have been a gang banger gansta shrimp with a body of piercings. (Yes, I am judgemental)

    My argument is the smith did something that was actually unnecessarily dangerous (in my book) and wasn't part of his duties as a FFL licensee. What skin was taken off his nose over a rusted up and supposedly not in firing condition NFA firearm that was illegally owned? Whether the person was dishonest looking or otherwise?

    We can't assume someone/anyone is going to do harm in the future. That's just something that nobody has the ability to conjure. (even though I AM judgemental)

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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    I knew someone who was in 'Nam and picked up one and brought it home, perfectly legal. Unfortunately, it was stolen in route home.
    I have no doubt that you knew someone who told a story. I was in Vietnam 1969-71, no way anyone was allowed to bring back a full-auto weapon. War trophies were permitted with proper documentation, and limited to weapons that did not violate the Gun Control Act (no full-auto, no short-barrel rifles/shotguns, no explosive devices, no destructive devices, etc). A semi-auto pistol was fine, most semi-auto rifles were OK (Chinese SKS being the most common), indigenous cross-bows were relatively popular. A few US Springfield rifles were captured, which the US had given to Ho Chi Minh's forces during WW2 to fight the Japanese occupying forces. Each piece had to be presented for inspection and the documentation prepared, registering that piece to that soldier and authorizing its importation to the US.

    Some units collected captured weapons for military displays, and those included machineguns, anti-aircraft guns, and similar items. Those remained in military inventories, not individual hands. Any individual caught trying to bring back a AK-47 was risking court martial and several years in the US military prison at Leavenworth, Kansas. I knew a guy who tried sending a dismantled AK home inside a set of stereo speakers; he was taken away by CID agents and not seen again.

    I recall one outfit near Da Nang that had a fully-equipped aircraft maintenance facility. Troops were allowed to bring in a captured AK-47, have it cut in half lengthwise (barrel, action, stock, everything), and have one side of the weapon mounted on a finished hardwood plaque for display. Those were obviously not weapons, nor was there any way to restore the cut pieces to functional condition.
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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
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    Yes, he could bring it home, but it didn't have the firing pin.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSafety View Post
    Yes, he could bring it home, but it didn't have the firing pin.
    An otherwise complete AK-47 rifle without the firing pin remains a machinegun under federal law (readily restorable to functional condition), and anyone possessing such an item or attempting to import it into the United States is committing a serious felony offense. Even the rifle's receiver completely stripped of all other parts and firing controls remains a machinegun under federal law.

    US military command authorities were very well aware of these laws and strictly enforced compliance. I have no doubt that a number of restricted items were smuggled back to the US, but not with any type of official sanction or legal exemption. Since most of the troops were young men with limited experience (average age of infantrymen was 22) I'm sure there were any number of misconceptions or misunderstandings, but I seriously doubt that any command officers or senior staff ever allowed any soldier to carry a AK-47 out of Vietnam. Frankly, any officer or NCO who knowingly allowed such a thing to happen would also face court martial proceedings, probably lucky to get by with a Bad Conduct Discharge in lieu of a prison sentence.

    Good stories are common, especially around poker tables or pitchers of beer. Even more common are the "I knew a guy who knew another guy who swore that he heard some other guy ..............". Hang around any group of veterans for a while and you will find that no one was a truck driver, or a supply clerk, or a cook, everyone was Special Forces, or SEALs, or Recon Marines, or fighter pilots.

    Best regards.
    formerly Sergeant, 11F4P (infantry operations & intelligence, airborne, Pathfinders), Vietnam 1969-71.
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    retired Police Chief.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    Too bad his father did not take care of this before he passed.
    He shouldn't have had to. I thought that was taken care of a couple of hundred years ago. To be precise, December 15, 1791.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    He shouldn't have had to. I thought that was taken care of a couple of hundred years ago. To be precise, December 15, 1791.
    Unfortunately, that's not how things work today.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    I believe about 1% of the weapon brought back from Viet Nam stories. I was there.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    Too bad his father did not take care of this before he passed.
    Too bad we have unnecessary firearm laws also. But, you're right. His father should have got it registered.
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Risasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    More than a few AK's found their way to the US during the Vietnam era. Even more arrived from across the Mexico border with smugglers. Several thousand were illegally delivered from China while Mr. Clinton presided, and the Chinese company's US agent was a frequent guest at the White House. I suspect that there have been some coming in from Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places in more recent years.

    Maybe if we make these things illegal they will just go away forever. Maybe not.
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    How about during WW2. You always hear the stories about the GI's bringing back Thompson's and then the guys who mailed home all kinds of contraband like entire Jeeps piece by piece.
    Are they also BS?

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    How about during WW2. You always hear the stories about the GI's bringing back Thompson's and then the guys who mailed home all kinds of contraband like entire Jeeps piece by piece.
    Are they also BS?
    Several episode's of "TV show MASH" about this stuff going on in Korean War also. I'd say it's reach more of an "urban legend" status, as @LimaCharlie said.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBrass45 View Post
    I didn't know it was the duty of the gunsmith to enforce ATF policy. Confiscating someone's property can go really wrong really quickly
    Amen... I would have cleaned it up, and pretended I didn't notice... I'm not doing their job for them. In this case, I'm fully support Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by APX-9M View Post
    Amen... I would have cleaned it up, and pretended I didn't notice... I'm not doing their job for them. In this case, I'm fully support Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
    I don't know any Class 3 dealer, gunsmith, business man that would risk his livelihood and freedom over an unregistered weapon.
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