question about holding a perp... - Page 2

question about holding a perp...

This is a discussion on question about holding a perp... within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jmf552 Nooooo. You didn't really read my post. I said, " You can point a gun intending to use it to stop ...

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 48
Like Tree69Likes

Thread: question about holding a perp...

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    FarLeft NY
    Posts
    583
    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Nooooo. You didn't really read my post. I said, "You can point a gun intending to use it to stop violent criminal action that's not a threat, that's a promise, and one that you are justified in making. If the imminent violent criminal action does not proceed, you may decide not to shoot.

    Simple formula (kind of a spin on one of the safety rules): Don't point a gun at anything you are not justified in shooting. If you reasonably believe you are about to get rolled, you are justified in pointing your gun at the attackers. You don't have to wait. Whether and if you decide to pull the trigger is your judgement call.

    But that is not at all the scenario in your original post. With legal stuff and guns, you have to look at the whole situation, end to end. There are a lot of ins and outs. You can't just say, "I've read posts where other people have done X..." unless it is the exact same situation down to every detail. I strongly advise you to find an take an SD law class. I have taken two of them and they were very enlightening. As I said, in NY, I would be doubly careful.
    I have taken a CC/SD courses, and for me personally it was along the lines of the discussion here.. Lots of grey... When is the right time to go for your gun?- Do I even consider helping a stranger in a deadly situation?... If a couple of young tough looking punks come right up in your face quickly and ask Hey man, you got any money for us?" you know it could go real bad real fast, but then again, you might hand them a $5 bill and that will be the end of it... If you pull your gun do you stop an impending assault?.. Or do you spend the night in jail then lose your CC permit for life for brandishing to 2 15 year olds that just wanted money for energy drinks and were simply asking for a handout?.. Sometimes I long for the days when I didn't carry and was resigned to the fact that if I were attacked randomly, I was just a part of a crime statistic.. it was a lot less to think about back then. bob

  2. #17
    Senior Member
    Array 1942bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    1,126
    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    I have taken a CC/SD courses, and for me personally it was along the lines of the discussion here.. Lots of grey... When is the right time to go for your gun?- Do I even consider helping a stranger in a deadly situation?... If a couple of young tough looking punks come right up in your face quickly and ask Hey man, you got any money for us?" you know it could go real bad real fast, but then again, you might hand them a $5 bill and that will be the end of it... If you pull your gun do you stop an impending assault?.. Or do you spend the night in jail then lose your CC permit for life for brandishing to 2 15 year olds that just wanted money for energy drinks and were simply asking for a handout?.. Sometimes I long for the days when I didn't carry and was resigned to the fact that if I were attacked randomly, I was just a part of a crime statistic.. it was a lot less to think about back then. bob
    At one month fro being 77 and weighing in at 165 pounds I take a simple approach to such situations as you describe. The principle of disparity of force. The simple fact is that two 15 year olds could actually severely hurt me in a physical confrontation influences my thinking this way. Facing a disparity of force situation I will draw my gun. Yes, I might get prosecuted for doing it, but I would rather face a jury than a beating or severe physical injury. getting old has two advantages: Medicare and Disparity of Force defense.
    Bikenut, bsms2 and OldChap like this.
    USMC 9/59 through 9/69
    Vietnam June ‘66 to February ‘68
    MOS: 4641, Combat Photographer

    "There are hunters and there are victims. By your discipline, cunning, obedience and alertness, you will decide if you are a hunter or a victim." General (retired) James Mattis.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    FarLeft NY
    Posts
    583
    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    At one month fro being 77 and weighing in at 165 pounds I take a simple approach to such situations as you describe. The principle of disparity of force. The simple fact is that two 15 year olds could actually severely hurt me in a physical confrontation influences my thinking this way. Facing a disparity of force situation I will draw my gun. Yes, I might get prosecuted for doing it, but I would rather face a jury than a beating or severe physical injury. getting old has two advantages: Medicare and Disparity of Force defense.
    Thats the way I tend to think as well,, Same with my wife.. She is extremely thin, no physical strength although she is healthy, and she has osteoporosis.. One good punch to the face could kill her and she knows it... she feels she simply can't afford to have someone take a swing before she draws, and would not hesitate as i might, consequences be damned... i did not think this way when I was younger faster stronger... As age has slowed and weakened me, my thoughts have changed.. My only real defense these days is my carry weapon. Like a number of members here I imagine.

    When I was younger i could intervene for others and have done so years ago.. However now with only my CC as an "equalizer", I realize that the decision to act in another persons defense, or even my own defense could be life altering to a degree that I can't possibly imagine.. As i said before, a lot to consider, and you might only have a second or two to make those decisions.. My wife always says to me when we have these discussions, "if I have to be afraid to use my gun to defend myself, why even have a gun?"... bob
    1942bull likes this.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    5,092
    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    I have taken a CC/SD courses, and for me personally it was along the lines of the discussion here.. Lots of grey... When is the right time to go for your gun?- Do I even consider helping a stranger in a deadly situation?... If a couple of young tough looking punks come right up in your face quickly and ask Hey man, you got any money for us?" you know it could go real bad real fast, but then again, you might hand them a $5 bill and that will be the end of it... If you pull your gun do you stop an impending assault?.. Or do you spend the night in jail then lose your CC permit for life for brandishing to 2 15 year olds that just wanted money for energy drinks and were simply asking for a handout?.. Sometimes I long for the days when I didn't carry and was resigned to the fact that if I were attacked randomly, I was just a part of a crime statistic.. it was a lot less to think about back then. bob
    All very good questions. Here is my take. I am not an expert, but I have done a fair bit of study on it. Others will no doubt chime in. In my state, you go for your gun when there is "a reasonable fear of an imminent threat of grave bodily harm from criminal action" You will later have to convince the legal system that you truly believed that before you drew.

    As to your scenario:
    1. First have good situational awareness. See the punks before they see you and evade and avoid, keep your distance. Make sure they know you are aware of them and unafraid.
    2. They may talk smack to you, mock you. Do not take that bait. You cannot be seen as having helped start or escalated the fight.
    3. If they just come at you in an attack, by all means, draw immediately and shoot if you have to.
    4. If they just approach, or they catch you unawares, and you feel threatened, you have some options: You can just run. If they chase, turn, draw and fire.
    5. If you are going to stand your ground, you need an "interview" routine some people call it. This is where they are making the final decision whether to attack and you are making the decision to defend. It is a tense situation. The interview routine I have practiced is to step back into a strong defensive stance, hold my non-gun hand up in a "stop" motion and say loudly, "Stay back, don't come any closer. I don't want any trouble, but I will defend myself." I will slip a thumb under my cover garment, or in my pocket if I'm pocket carrying. I have a very commanding voice when I want to and that lets them know I have a gun even though I haven't shown it. It also establishes for any witness that you tried to avoid the confrontation and that they started it. Be aware of what is around you. Make sure there are no accomplices coming up behind you. At that point, you have to be ready to go into action immediately.
    6. I advocate having some very basic hand-to-hand combat training and to carry some less than lethal weapon, like pepper spray. If you think that might work, it could save you from having to shoot someone.
    7. If they make a furtive move, show a weapon move at you, at some point you have to decide the fight is on, draw and fire until the threat is down. The main thing is to try to avoid that point if you can, but if you can't, to not hesitate.

    But all that is hypothetical and only applies to me. I am 66, with health issues, but I am a big guy, in decent shape and I have a fair amount of hand-to-hand training. I also carry pepper spray in addition to my gun. I also live in a somewhat more understanding state.

    You have to make those decisions in real time. It is a big responsibility. I would also recommend some Force on Force training to give you an idea of how these incidents can play out. Just my two cents and worth every penny! There are no absolutes in this kind of thing.

    But back to your original post, which we have gotten way off track from...no.
    matthew03 likes this.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    OREGON
    Posts
    531
    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    I suppose .. Thats an old term, and I am not sure if such a thing exists anymore, but it might be a good thing to find out....Most of us will never be in that situation of course, but the guy that shot the cop beater probably thought the exact same thing 20 seconds before he stopped his car, jumped out and saved a cop's life... bob
    It's an old term? To who? Don't take this the wrong way, but that comment tells me more than anything that this is not just something you need to do a lot of research on locally, but is probably something you shouldn't do.

    Citizens' arrests occur every day, all over the country for different reasons. Every state is going to have something on the books about this. They can differ greatly. But in most of them, if not all of them, a citizen can't do anything a police officer couldn't/wouldn't do in the same situation. So, draw your gun, but you'd better be 100% positive it would be correct for a police officer to do that in the same situation. The scenario with the mother isn't anything a police officer would draw his gun on, not unless the mother was also trying to get physical and push the officer into traffic, and even then likely not. And pulling a gun on someone who you aren't willing to shoot is... I'll leave it there and just say you really need to do some research on your local law, preferably with a lawyer.

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array ColoradoDiablo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,755
    Colorado allows private citizens to effect an arrest and in some cases to use physical force to effect an arrest and prevent an escape once arrested.


    § 18-1-707. Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape

    (7) A private person acting on his own account is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to effect an arrest, or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested person who has committed an offense in his presence; but he is justified in using deadly physical force for the purpose only when he reasonably believes it necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.

    Colorado even goes so far as to provide for immunity in certain circumstances.
    Stirling XD likes this.
    U.S. Army, Retired (1986 to 2014)
    Life Member, Veterans of Foreign Wars

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    FarLeft NY
    Posts
    583
    Quote Originally Posted by CreedDryrot View Post
    It's an old term? To who? Don't take this the wrong way, but that comment tells me more than anything that this is not just something you need to do a lot of research on locally, but is probably something you shouldn't do.

    Citizens' arrests occur every day, all over the country for different reasons. Every state is going to have something on the books about this. They can differ greatly. But in most of them, if not all of them, a citizen can't do anything a police officer couldn't/wouldn't do in the same situation. So, draw your gun, but you'd better be 100% positive it would be correct for a police officer to do that in the same situation. The scenario with the mother isn't anything a police officer would draw his gun on, not unless the mother was also trying to get physical and push the officer into traffic, and even then likely not. And pulling a gun on someone who you aren't willing to shoot is... I'll leave it there and just say you really need to do some research on your local law, preferably with a lawyer.
    Right, I'll get right on the phone and call a lawyer up in case I want to arrest someone... Oh brother... I was seeking comments about a horrible act i saw on the internet and wanted discussion on it.. At 65 I am not going to track down bad guys and have them on the ground face down hands behind head waiting for the cops with me pointing a pistol at their skull...

    I was just asking opinions on how far an armed civilian could or should go when faced with a terrible crime such as attempted murder or murder, and the possible ramifications...
    I did look up my state law, and as I said, its grey.. You can stop a violent crime and you can defend a 3rd person from being killed or raped.. In NY they use the terms reasonable/may/ must be correct, etc etc.. Basically, yes, you can but you damn better be correct.
    As far as "pulling a gun", you can if its during the crime, and you can stop it, but you can't once the crime is committed..

    In the case of that disgusting woman pushing an older woman in front of a bus trying to kill her, if one was fast enough to stick a gun in her face as she was pushing the woman forcing her to stop her violent act, it would be ok, but if the woman had fallen under the wheels and was crushed to death as she intended then all one could be is a "good witness".. As i said earlier in this thread-No wonder people don't want to get involved...

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    FarLeft NY
    Posts
    583
    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoDiablo View Post
    Colorado allows private citizens to effect an arrest and in some cases to use physical force to effect an arrest and prevent an escape once arrested.


    § 18-1-707. Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape

    (7) A private person acting on his own account is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to effect an arrest, or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested person who has committed an offense in his presence; but he is justified in using deadly physical force for the purpose only when he reasonably believes it necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.

    Colorado even goes so far as to provide for immunity in certain circumstances.
    thats quite interesting.. Much clearer and more unambiguous than the law in NY.. Basically if i read it right, however, its stated "deadly PHYSICAL force".. So if a CC holder that was there they might still be in big trouble if he/she pulled a weapon and tried to keep the perp from escaping... Meaning basically if you are strong enough to grab and hold a bad guy, go for it , and wait for the cops, but if you are not strong enough physically, don't try using your weapon to hold a perp for the cops... Thats how it seems to be worded..
    Not trying to be silly, but it seems if you come upon someone trying to murder another person, you can actually fire your weapon to stop the attack, however once the attack is over, even if someone has been murdered, do not unholster the gun... unless they come for you as well... bob

    bob

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    FarLeft NY
    Posts
    583
    btw guys, its still winter here, just killing some time, I enjoy discussion on this board, and I am not looking for arguments or "you need training", "you need to study local laws", "never try this yourself",, Just looking for some good conversation, good robust debate and nice exchange of ideas. I see or read things, get thoughts in my head, and like to discuss it... Nothing much more than that.. I think some folks take it too seriously... bob

  11. #25
    Senior Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    50,085
    In that situation I would take a pic and call 911, nothing more.
    ColoradoDiablo and msgt/ret like this.
    Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member

  12. #26
    VIP Member
    Array CG11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    on my way out of Southern California
    Posts
    4,865
    The fickle finger of public opinion, sadly, will influence any action, or even inaction, that we take. That's what lawyers do, they tell juries what to think. Regardless of the situation, we are at the mercy of this system, and unless you are personally in danger, the risk of prosecution is great. Weigh the situation carefully.
    Bikenut likes this.
    So who is this Will that everybody fires at, what did he do, and how come he's not dead yet??

  13. #27
    Sponsor
    Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    18,307
    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    btw guys, its still winter here, just killing some time, I enjoy discussion on this board, and I am not looking for arguments or "you need training", "you need to study local laws", "never try this yourself",, Just looking for some good conversation, good robust debate and nice exchange of ideas. I see or read things, get thoughts in my head, and like to discuss it... Nothing much more than that.. I think some folks take it too seriously... bob
    Pulling a gun is serious business, to be taken very seriously in fact.

    "it depends" on the circumstances.
    Bikenut and Stirling XD like this.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    The lion does not even bother to turn his head when he hears the small dog barking.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/azqkr

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,021
    We should not equate being a good witness as the same things as doing nothing. Doing nothing would be walking away before the police get there or telling the police you didn't see anything when in fact you did. It would be taking video so that you could post it on social media instead of giving it to the police to build a case.

    Being a good witness means waiting around for the police to show up. It means writing out a witness statement. It may mean working with a sketch artist. It may mean taking time off work to look at a line up and testifying in court. A good witness may also face the risk of retaliation from the thug or his gang.
    matthew03 and AzQkr like this.
    Has anyone tried turning the country off and then back on again?

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array matthew03's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    5,520
    My view of defending others has changed drastically over the 26 years I have been CCW. At first I was along the lines of intervene if the incident was so shocking my conscious would force me to.

    Now it's more of they have the same opportunity to defend themselves that I have, I have spent huge money training to be proficient and capable, also my habby. to risk my livelihood for someone that may be against my rights, may have instigated the situation they are in, etc. Sorry, I've taken steps to protect me and mine, you are probably on your own with me as a good witness as long as the threat doesn't turn to me or people I care for.

    In no way am I there to protect others.

    I was recently asked by a co-worker who knows I train what I would do if a shooting occurred at our office. She was shocked by the response that I would exit the side door and go home more than likely. I reminded her that I often invite co-workers to attend classes with me, but they would rather go to sporting events.

    Get your skills and keep them sharp, they are for use to protect you and yours, everyone else can take care of themselves or rely on LEO.
    Last edited by matthew03; March 28th, 2019 at 03:35 PM.
    Bikenut, AzQkr and OldVet like this.
    https://www.facebook.com/Appalachian...125519/?ref=hl
    I don't train to fight some street urchin, I train to fight the evil version of myself, and that person scares me, because I know the time I put into my training on how to beat him.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hiding in English-speaking America
    Posts
    29,885
    ^^ I can respect that. Intervening should never be mandatory nor expected, just an option.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •