This is a discussion on question about holding a perp... within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jmf552 Nooooo. You didn't really read my post. I said, " You can point a gun intending to use it to stop ...
USMC 9/59 through 9/69
Vietnam June 66 to February 68
MOS: 4641, Combat Photographer
"There are hunters and there are victims. By your discipline, cunning, obedience and alertness, you will decide if you are a hunter or a victim." General (retired) James Mattis.
When I was younger i could intervene for others and have done so years ago.. However now with only my CC as an "equalizer", I realize that the decision to act in another persons defense, or even my own defense could be life altering to a degree that I can't possibly imagine.. As i said before, a lot to consider, and you might only have a second or two to make those decisions.. My wife always says to me when we have these discussions, "if I have to be afraid to use my gun to defend myself, why even have a gun?"... bob
As to your scenario:
- First have good situational awareness. See the punks before they see you and evade and avoid, keep your distance. Make sure they know you are aware of them and unafraid.
- They may talk smack to you, mock you. Do not take that bait. You cannot be seen as having helped start or escalated the fight.
- If they just come at you in an attack, by all means, draw immediately and shoot if you have to.
- If they just approach, or they catch you unawares, and you feel threatened, you have some options: You can just run. If they chase, turn, draw and fire.
- If you are going to stand your ground, you need an "interview" routine some people call it. This is where they are making the final decision whether to attack and you are making the decision to defend. It is a tense situation. The interview routine I have practiced is to step back into a strong defensive stance, hold my non-gun hand up in a "stop" motion and say loudly, "Stay back, don't come any closer. I don't want any trouble, but I will defend myself." I will slip a thumb under my cover garment, or in my pocket if I'm pocket carrying. I have a very commanding voice when I want to and that lets them know I have a gun even though I haven't shown it. It also establishes for any witness that you tried to avoid the confrontation and that they started it. Be aware of what is around you. Make sure there are no accomplices coming up behind you. At that point, you have to be ready to go into action immediately.
- I advocate having some very basic hand-to-hand combat training and to carry some less than lethal weapon, like pepper spray. If you think that might work, it could save you from having to shoot someone.
- If they make a furtive move, show a weapon move at you, at some point you have to decide the fight is on, draw and fire until the threat is down. The main thing is to try to avoid that point if you can, but if you can't, to not hesitate.
But all that is hypothetical and only applies to me. I am 66, with health issues, but I am a big guy, in decent shape and I have a fair amount of hand-to-hand training. I also carry pepper spray in addition to my gun. I also live in a somewhat more understanding state.
You have to make those decisions in real time. It is a big responsibility. I would also recommend some Force on Force training to give you an idea of how these incidents can play out. Just my two cents and worth every penny! There are no absolutes in this kind of thing.
But back to your original post, which we have gotten way off track from...no.
Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe
Citizens' arrests occur every day, all over the country for different reasons. Every state is going to have something on the books about this. They can differ greatly. But in most of them, if not all of them, a citizen can't do anything a police officer couldn't/wouldn't do in the same situation. So, draw your gun, but you'd better be 100% positive it would be correct for a police officer to do that in the same situation. The scenario with the mother isn't anything a police officer would draw his gun on, not unless the mother was also trying to get physical and push the officer into traffic, and even then likely not. And pulling a gun on someone who you aren't willing to shoot is... I'll leave it there and just say you really need to do some research on your local law, preferably with a lawyer.
Colorado allows private citizens to effect an arrest and in some cases to use physical force to effect an arrest and prevent an escape once arrested.
§ 18-1-707. Use of physical force in making an arrest or in preventing an escape
(7) A private person acting on his own account is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to effect an arrest, or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested person who has committed an offense in his presence; but he is justified in using deadly physical force for the purpose only when he reasonably believes it necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.
Colorado even goes so far as to provide for immunity in certain circumstances.
U.S. Army, Retired (1986 to 2014)
Life Member, Veterans of Foreign Wars
I was just asking opinions on how far an armed civilian could or should go when faced with a terrible crime such as attempted murder or murder, and the possible ramifications...
I did look up my state law, and as I said, its grey.. You can stop a violent crime and you can defend a 3rd person from being killed or raped.. In NY they use the terms reasonable/may/ must be correct, etc etc.. Basically, yes, you can but you damn better be correct.
As far as "pulling a gun", you can if its during the crime, and you can stop it, but you can't once the crime is committed..
In the case of that disgusting woman pushing an older woman in front of a bus trying to kill her, if one was fast enough to stick a gun in her face as she was pushing the woman forcing her to stop her violent act, it would be ok, but if the woman had fallen under the wheels and was crushed to death as she intended then all one could be is a "good witness".. As i said earlier in this thread-No wonder people don't want to get involved...
Not trying to be silly, but it seems if you come upon someone trying to murder another person, you can actually fire your weapon to stop the attack, however once the attack is over, even if someone has been murdered, do not unholster the gun... unless they come for you as well... bob
btw guys, its still winter here, just killing some time, I enjoy discussion on this board, and I am not looking for arguments or "you need training", "you need to study local laws", "never try this yourself",, Just looking for some good conversation, good robust debate and nice exchange of ideas. I see or read things, get thoughts in my head, and like to discuss it... Nothing much more than that.. I think some folks take it too seriously... bob
In that situation I would take a pic and call 911, nothing more.
Proverbs 27:12 says: The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
The fickle finger of public opinion, sadly, will influence any action, or even inaction, that we take. That's what lawyers do, they tell juries what to think. Regardless of the situation, we are at the mercy of this system, and unless you are personally in danger, the risk of prosecution is great. Weigh the situation carefully.
So who is this Will that everybody fires at, what did he do, and how come he's not dead yet??
The mind is the limiting factor
The lion does not even bother to turn his head when he hears the small dog barking.
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
We should not equate being a good witness as the same things as doing nothing. Doing nothing would be walking away before the police get there or telling the police you didn't see anything when in fact you did. It would be taking video so that you could post it on social media instead of giving it to the police to build a case.
Being a good witness means waiting around for the police to show up. It means writing out a witness statement. It may mean working with a sketch artist. It may mean taking time off work to look at a line up and testifying in court. A good witness may also face the risk of retaliation from the thug or his gang.
Has anyone tried turning the country off and then back on again?
My view of defending others has changed drastically over the 26 years I have been CCW. At first I was along the lines of intervene if the incident was so shocking my conscious would force me to.
Now it's more of they have the same opportunity to defend themselves that I have, I have spent huge money training to be proficient and capable, also my habby. to risk my livelihood for someone that may be against my rights, may have instigated the situation they are in, etc. Sorry, I've taken steps to protect me and mine, you are probably on your own with me as a good witness as long as the threat doesn't turn to me or people I care for.
In no way am I there to protect others.
I was recently asked by a co-worker who knows I train what I would do if a shooting occurred at our office. She was shocked by the response that I would exit the side door and go home more than likely. I reminded her that I often invite co-workers to attend classes with me, but they would rather go to sporting events.
Get your skills and keep them sharp, they are for use to protect you and yours, everyone else can take care of themselves or rely on LEO.
Last edited by matthew03; March 28th, 2019 at 03:35 PM.
I don't train to fight some street urchin, I train to fight the evil version of myself, and that person scares me, because I know the time I put into my training on how to beat him.
^^ I can respect that. Intervening should never be mandatory nor expected, just an option.
Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth