question about holding a perp...

question about holding a perp...

This is a discussion on question about holding a perp... within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; and i hope its not a stupid one, so bear with me... I was watching an awful video of a big fat young woman with ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    question about holding a perp...

    and i hope its not a stupid one, so bear with me...
    I was watching an awful video of a big fat young woman with 2 little kids push a woman in her 60's in front of a moving bus after an argument... Attempted murder.. happily the woman was not killed, and was just scraped and cut up a bit.. the younger woman walked away with her 2 VERY small kids.
    Lots of people watching, doing nothing of course.

    If this happened with CC permit holder close at , and they held the SOB at gunpoint until police arrived, would he/she be prosecuted, even after helping the police catch an attempted murderer?

    I think the answer would be something like - "don't ever take the chance, just worry about you and yours", but i realize some of us think differently on these matters..
    it would be so hard to stare and do nothing..
    Same thing on a NYC subway the other day,, A punk kicking an 85 year old woman in the face hard and repeatedly, with a lot of people sitting there doing nothing except taking videos while that poor old woman was getting her face kicked in... awful to watch even on video.. Could not imagine my reaction if it ever unfolded right in front of me.

    sadly, in my mid 60's my fist fighting days are over, as well as my ability to physically take down a young, strong,fast, SOB thats severely injuring someone else.. all I have is my weapon in a situation like that.. my brute force days are behind me.

    Are CC permit holders really relegated to watching instead of helping someone who is in deadly serious trouble?

    I was also thinking about the outcome of the case in Florida where a drug addled guy was on top of a state trooper or sheriffs deputy severely beating him, and a passing Good Samaritan shot and killed the BG after telling him to stop and he would not.. From what I read, the officer was yelling at the CC holder to shoot the guy, which he finally did... Do things really have to get to that level, where a cop has to give permission to stop an attack with your weapon?..

    I think most of us would use our weapons to defends our own lives, and the lives of our loved ones, but are we really helpless in helping another person that might be killed?..

    I read threads right on these pages years ago, that basically stated, walk away, you are ok with your own personal defense, that other person thats in deadly trouble is on his own, its not your problem.. just "be a good witness".. Even if it came to witnessing a murder that you might have stopped, its their problem not yours..

    Just wondering about that after seeing that fat woman walk away unscathed after trying to kill a much older woman.. Not sure I could have kept my gun in my pocket if I were there..
    I pray I am never in such a situation, because I am not sure at all how I would respond.... Walk away, and feel terrible guilt for not helping?, or try and help, and wind up in prison...bob
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Struckat's Avatar
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    Yes, hold her at gunpoint with her two very small children. What will you do, shoot her if she moves?

    At that point the only thing is to be a good witness. Follow her if you feel you need to. I see no situation where you can hold someone at gunpoint. A ccw does not make you a cop. How would you explain to the police, “Yes, I shot her because she was walking away when I told her to stay.” She is not a rampant danger to the rest of the world, you would fry for shooting her no matter how you felt about what she did.
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    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Struckat View Post
    Yes, hold her at gunpoint with her two very small children. What will you do, shoot her if she moves?

    At that point the only thing is to be a good witness. Follow her if you feel you need to. I see no situation where you can hold someone at gunpoint. A ccw does not make you a cop. How would you explain to the police, “Yes, I shot her because she was walking away when I told her to stay.” She is not a rampant danger to the rest of the world, you would fry for shooting her no matter how you felt about what she did.
    Of course one could never shoot her, I realize that, but if someone tries to murder another person, or even carries it out, you would think someone that was legally armed with maybe help from another person or two could hold a murderer or attempted murder from just walking away without going to jail themselves... So basically, never defend anyone other than yourself???.. what if the person she threw in front of the bus was a CC holders wife, son or daughter?.. mother, father?,, again, just be a good witness?.... Tough questions..... bob

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    Senior Member Array CreedDryrot's Avatar
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    You're talking about a citizen's arrest. You'd want to check with your local laws to see what's legal and what's not, or if it's even allowed. Laws vary.
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    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreedDryrot View Post
    You're talking about a citizen's arrest. You'd want to check with your local laws to see what's legal and what's not, or if it's even allowed. Laws vary.
    I suppose .. Thats an old term, and I am not sure if such a thing exists anymore, but it might be a good thing to find out....Most of us will never be in that situation of course, but the guy that shot the cop beater probably thought the exact same thing 20 seconds before he stopped his car, jumped out and saved a cop's life... bob

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    I think it would be very risky to draw a gun in such a situation. You would not be facing tht tgrear of deadly force, and your action would not stop the wrongdoing which was over. Depending upon your state laws you might be able to make a citizens arrest of a person who committed assault or battery on another person. But you best know the law very clearly, and you best have some witnesses who could confirm what you saw the perp do. You do not want to get into a he said/she said contest.

    If I were in that situation I would call 911 and then continually slow down the perp by getting in her path until the police arrived. I would take a photo of her as she walked away. If she got to and into a car I would photograph the license number, car, etc. A license plate number can be a great asset in apprehending a perp. The one thing I would not do is draw my gun unless she presented a means of deadly force.
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    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    Check your state and local laws very carefully on citizen's arrests. I would check with an attorney, preferably one who supports the Second Amendment. You could end up being the bad guy and going to prison.
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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    (Sarchasm, of course) Shoot one of the kids. Threaten to shoot the other one if she tries to leave. Makes about as much sense.

    You don't threaten with a gun. If you are pointing a gun at someone without having the justification to use it, that is brandishing, which is either a felony or serious misdemeanor depending on the state. You can point a gun intending to use it to stop violent criminal action, but then the violent criminal action stops, so you don't shoot. That's OK. But waving a gun around trying to get someone to do or not do something because you say so is not OK. You could be the one who winds up in jail or sued.

    What would I do? I would call 911. I would see if I could render first aid to the victim and maybe save a life. I might take the perp's picture with my phone. I might follow her. But that is it.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Looked it up for NY.. If I read it correctly, you CAN stop murder/rape/deadly assault etc, in progress and hold the perp, and you can hold a perp on your own property. Once the crime has been committed, it becomes much less clear..

    also, it pretty much has to be life endangering,, so if a guy just has a few teeth knocked out, but is still fighting, you aren't justified.. I guess if he's unconscious on the ground, bleeding profusely, you might have a case to stop it, and hold the perp... Just better be damned sure the guy is really close to being dead.... Like i said, I pray I am never in the described situation.. Too much to think about too quickly... bob

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    VIP Member Array Struckat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    Of course one could never shoot her, I realize that, but if someone tries to murder another person, or even carries it out, you would think someone that was legally armed with maybe help from another person or two could hold a murderer or attempted murder from just walking away without going to jail themselves... So basically, never defend anyone other than yourself???.. what if the person she threw in front of the bus was a CC holders wife, son or daughter?.. mother, father?,, again, just be a good witness?.... Tough questions..... bob
    “At gunpoint” will do nothing for you. You’re not protecting anyone at that point. If you can do a citizens arrest, sure go for it.

    But as you describe, the felony has already been committed. All you can do is try to make sure the perp meets the police. Don’t pull your gun unless you can convince the authorities that you were next on the killers list or it’s looks like they will kill someone else.
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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    @beebee : If you are in NY, I would really watch out. Texas might be another story, but no one should have to warn you about the NY legal system! The statute might say one thing, but NY is the home of overzealous prosecution against gun owners.
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    Unless you are willing and justified to shoot them if they don't comply, drawing on them is probably ill-advised.
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    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    (Sarchasm, of course) Shoot one of the kids. Threaten to shoot the other one if she tries to leave. Makes about as much sense.

    You don't threaten with a gun. If you are pointing a gun at someone without having the justification to use it, that is brandishing, which is either a felony or serious misdemeanor depending on the state. You can point a gun intending to use it to stop violent criminal action, but then the violent criminal action stops, so you don't shoot. That's OK. But waving a gun around trying to get someone to do or not do something because you say so is not OK. You could be the one who winds up in jail or sued.

    What would I do? I would call 911. I would see if I could render first aid to the victim and maybe save a life. I might take the perp's picture with my phone. I might follow her. But that is it.
    I understand the point you made, "you don't threaten with a gun".. Here's the problem I have with that... Pulling your gun when a couple thugs are about to roll you for your wallet might save your life, and i have seen many reports on these pages of members having done similar.. Is it really better to wait until they actually start beating your head in?... At my age, i can't take a good hard punch, i would be out and helpless.. Is an imminent deadly threat enough to pull your gun in self defense?, or do you have to actually wait until the assault begins, by which time it may be too late.. lots of grey area...

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array beebee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    @beebee : If you are in NY, I would really watch out. Texas might be another story, but no one should have to warn you about the NY legal system! The statute might say one thing, but NY is the home of overzealous prosecution against gun owners.
    Yes, understand 100%.. Basically it says you can stop an assault/murder/rape . You can hold the perp as well. However, you better be damn sure thats what it is... Thats why all these videos show people walking away, stepping over people lying bleeding , on the ground out cold.... Not getting involved does seem to be the most common course of action in the modern age.. Its sad really... bob

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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebee View Post
    I understand the point you made, "you don't threaten with a gun".. Here's the problem I have with that... Pulling your gun when a couple thugs are about to roll you for your wallet might save your life, and i have seen many reports on these pages of members having done similar.. Is it really better to wait until they actually start beating your head in?... At my age, i can't take a good hard punch, i would be out and helpless.. Is an imminent deadly threat enough to pull your gun in self defense?, or do you have to actually wait until the assault begins, by which time it may be too late.. lots of grey area...
    Nooooo. You didn't really read my post. I said, "You can point a gun intending to use it to stop violent criminal action that's not a threat, that's a promise, and one that you are justified in making. If the imminent violent criminal action does not proceed, you may decide not to shoot.

    Simple formula (kind of a spin on one of the safety rules): Don't point a gun at anything you are not justified in shooting. If you reasonably believe you are about to get rolled, you are justified in pointing your gun at the attackers. You don't have to wait. Whether and if you decide to pull the trigger is your judgement call.

    But that is not at all the scenario in your original post. With legal stuff and guns, you have to look at the whole situation, end to end. There are a lot of ins and outs. You can't just say, "I've read posts where other people have done X..." unless it is the exact same situation down to every detail. I strongly advise you to find an take an SD law class. I have taken two of them and they were very enlightening. As I said, in NY, I would be doubly careful.
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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