Seriously intense. Are you prepared?

Seriously intense. Are you prepared?

This is a discussion on Seriously intense. Are you prepared? within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; In federal Judge Benitez' recent ruling that shot down the CA 10-round magazine limit (only to have a temporary stay on that ruling, also by ...

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    Member Array RBI55's Avatar
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    Seriously intense. Are you prepared?

    In federal Judge Benitez' recent ruling that shot down the CA 10-round magazine limit (only to have a temporary stay on that ruling, also by him), the judge used a few examples where that 10-round limit actually endangered the law-abiding. Think about just how prepared you and your family would be in those circumstances.

    Here are a few links:

    Susan Gonzalez, 1997: Susan Gonzalez - Anti-Gun Mom Turned Survivor*****by Lyn Bates - We are AWARE

    Melinda Herman, 2013: https://townhall.com/columnists/neal...ement-n1489366

    Feng Zhu, 2016:

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    Member Array theblakester's Avatar
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    Im prepared by not living in California.


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    Member Array RBI55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theblakester View Post
    Im prepared by not living in California.
    While I politically agree with that sentiment, the examples cited by the judge aren’t from California and are examples of situations when shot capacity had a real impact on the event. One example was simply by having a .38 revolver with 6 round capacity and no reloads.
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    There is a significant benefit to the judge’s inclusion of examples of an ammunition deficiency in a violent confrontation. He has put those examples on public display, and in doing so provided pro 2A folks the the means to counter the Anti’s cry that no one needs more than ten rounds.
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    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    I guess me and my Glock 30 don't stand a chance.

    The needed number of rounds can be argued ad nauseum, but I don't like arbitrary and unnecessary restrictions on anything.
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    Distinguished Member Array xXxHeavy's Avatar
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    No argument here in NJ......our delusional Govenor Murphy says....anything more than 10 rounds makes us dangerous to society.

    "Don't Come Here...there's nothin' here for ya" !!!
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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    I am against mag limits, but I think we use irrelevant, rare events to try to make the case against restrictions, which actually weakens our arguments. All of these incidents were crap-shows of bad marksmanship and tactics. More rounds would not have made a difference in any of them if the defenders could't get good hits. All of them make a better case for carbines than hi-cap pistols.

    The gal in the video had to load her gun first and then, obviously started spraying rounds all over the place. The gal with the six shooter did stop the attack and was close enough for a headshot, which she obviously didn't get. And I always hear this trope, "Well what if he had accomplices?" As Grant Cunningham says, "Well, what if a platoon of N. Korean paratroopers lands on your lawn?" The researched history is that accomplices almost always bolt after the first shot.

    In the case where the gal had a 10 round mag, she emptied it to get two hits on one guy then she had nothing left for the other guy. History shows that if she if she had a 15 round mag, she would have probably emptied that on the first guy and had nothing left. And she didn't want to shoot the other guy for fear of hitting her husband, but then she allows him to get shot twice by the bad guy. Like I said, all crap-shows where accuracy and tactics were to blame, not round count.

    If in any of those situations, you had "every round hitting its target" or "a shotgun" you would have had better outcomes than if you had 15 round magazines. Again, I am all for hi-caps for people who feel they need them. I just think that more rounds is not the solution to "spray and pray."
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    Distinguished Member Array xXxHeavy's Avatar
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    Quote: jmf552 "If in any of those situations, you had "every round hitting its target" or "a shotgun" you would have had better outcomes than if you had 15 round magazines. Again, I am all for hi-caps for people who feel they need them. I just think that more rounds is not the solution to "spray and pray."

    Tell that to the NYC PD ......my god, they have spent more ammo in most cases than one could believe....but, in their defense, when the SHTF it's not like shooting at the range...yup we practice but it's hard to get one's adreniline pumping to the degree of an actual assault...I guess now I believe more is better....never heard anyone complain about having too much ammunition.
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    New Member Array DavesYourUncle's Avatar
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    The truth about magazine limits: A citizen's ability to effectively defend against multiple violent criminals is severely impaired. However, a criminal's ability to wreak havoc on the innocent is not impaired since they meet little or no resistance. This has been proven over and over again but the Left intentionally keeps the blinders on and denies the truth for the sake of their agenda.

    We really need to determine exactly what the end game of the Left truly is. Do they want to disarm citizens in order to remove any means of resistance? Or, do they push for "Gun Control" because it sounds warm and fuzzy to the sheeple and wins their votes? Most definitely the latter, and in some extreme cases, maybe the former as well. Every underhanded, backward, polarizing and anti-freedom stance the Left takes is designed to appeal to peoples' emotions in an effort to win votes. They want to get people riled up, because when people are emotional they lose the ability to think and act rationally. That's the primary function. Truth is secondary to their insatiable thirst for power and control. The twisted mental gymnastics and anti-logic required to justify their positions should set off alarms for anyone with critical thinking skills, but again, emotional people tend not to think rationally.

    Just as we must train our body and mental focus to be able to act appropriately in times of crisis, we must train our minds to defend against falsehoods and to be able to think critically. These skills are not being taught by public education, from elementary grades all the way through college. We now have at least one, maybe two or three, generations of citizens who have never learned this skill, except a lucky few who either learned it from their parents or have miraculously discovered it on their own.

    We can strengthen our arguments with truth and real-world examples until we're out of breath, and it will make no difference, I'm afraid. Our only hope is that there are enough people left in this society who are able to think critically and accept truth. I feel the number of such people is rapidly declining, and time is running out to stop the prevailing insanity from destroying this great country.
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    Member Array RBI55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxHeavy View Post
    No argument here in NJ......our delusional Govenor Murphy says....anything more than 10 rounds makes us dangerous to society.
    The judge put a lot of time in his decision to illustrate how too little capacity puts the law-abiding at great risk while unnecessary (unused) capacity by the law-abiding puts nobody at risk. The reality is that nobody knows how many rounds are needed until after a shooting has ended. If the law-abiding (the victim) is dead or seriously wounded and his/her firearm is empty, any law that placed a limit on ammunition capacity needs to be reconsidered as a threat to the safety of law-abiding gun owners.

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    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxHeavy View Post
    Quote: jmf552 "If in any of those situations, you had "every round hitting its target" or "a shotgun" you would have had better outcomes than if you had 15 round magazines. Again, I am all for hi-caps for people who feel they need them. I just think that more rounds is not the solution to "spray and pray."

    Tell that to the NYC PD ......my god, they have spent more ammo in most cases than one could believe....but, in their defense, when the SHTF it's not like shooting at the range...yup we practice but it's hard to get one's adreniline pumping to the degree of an actual assault...I guess now I believe more is better....never heard anyone complain about having too much ammunition.
    So your argument can be summarized as follows: Defenders, even cops, can only get hits on the range. Real situations are too stressful for marksmanship. So the solution is more ammo for them to miss with. Did I get that right?
    Attack Squadron 65 "Tigers", USS Eisenhower '80 - '83, peackeeping w/Iran, Libya, Lebanon and E. Europe

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    VIP Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    It comes down to this. When you limit magazine capacity, only lawfully minded citizens comply. Criminally minded people will get the best weapons they can afford (to steal or purchase illegally). These laws only serve to make anti gun voters feel good. The effect does real harm.
    Psalm 144:1

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    Distinguished Member Array xXxHeavy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    So your argument can be summarized as follows: Defenders, even cops, can only get hits on the range. Real situations are too stressful for marksmanship. So the solution is more ammo for them to miss with. Did I get that right?
    No...........
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    Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxHeavy View Post
    Quote: jmf552 "If in any of those situations, you had "every round hitting its target" or "a shotgun" you would have had better outcomes than if you had 15 round magazines. Again, I am all for hi-caps for people who feel they need them. I just think that more rounds is not the solution to "spray and pray."

    Tell that to the NYC PD ......my god, they have spent more ammo in most cases than one could believe....but, in their defense, when the SHTF it's not like shooting at the range...yup we practice but it's hard to get one's adreniline pumping to the degree of an actual assault...I guess now I believe more is better....never heard anyone complain about having too much ammunition.
    I agree with you about the part of your post I put in Bold for emphasis...

    On the range standing in a perfect stance, carefully acquiring a perfect sight picture, and sllloooowwwllly squeezing the trigger to get a perfect release all in order to get a perfect shot isn't easy.

    On the range getting good hits with no misses while drawing and shooting rapid fire at a stationary target all while you are moving is harder.

    But getting decent (note I didn't say "perfect" nor did I say "good") hits in the real world in the heat of the moment while shooting rapid fire at a bad guy that is moving (maybe shooting back at you!) while you are also moving and you are making decisions on the fly is even harder. And because of all that it is the real world where more ammo helps make up for misses. Misses that may be, but are not always, because the defender is a crappy shot.

    I am not surprised when folks (police, uber trained citizens, and just good ole Joe/Jane public) miss because of all the chaos of real life situations .
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

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    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    @jmf552 I think you are making some generalizations that are completely foreign to the facts:

    If in any of those situations, you had "every round hitting its target" or "a shotgun" you would have had better outcomes than if you had 15 round magazines. Again, I am all for hi-caps for people who feel they need them. I just think that more rounds is not the solution to "spray and pray."
    Exactly who do you feel "sprays and prays?" Military combat units? They all carry well in excess of normal limits, but I wonder why you think their method is spray and pray? Or police officers? Do you really think they desire to spray and pray when every round fired has a lawyer tied to it? Not the situation? So, we've eliminated professionals as spray and prayers.

    There are many civilians who carry more than 6 rounds (or 5). Is it your contention that those who carry 6 rounds will be 100% accurate in a firefight? Or that those who carry 6 rounds will be more accurate than those who carry 20 or 30 rounds? Or how you can guarantee that those who carry 6 rounds will never be guilty of spray and pray in a life and death situation? Where are the facts to validate any of those assumptions?

    Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but it seems you're using a broad brush to paint a huge variety of gun owners. And in all truthfulness, until you've actually had someone try to kill you standing 10 feet away with a gun, you don't know how you will react or how you will perform.

    @Bikenut Exactly right. Assuming that people miss in actual life and death situations is almost exclusively the province of those who have never been in those situations themselves. They truly believe what they do on a range, shoot house, training class, or competition is the same as real combat. And they tie all those assumptions up in the myth that carrying more ammo means you'll just use suppression fire to try and stop an attack. I didn't have to shoot back, but I'm sure I'm not alone when I testify that when the bullets zip past just over your head and you realize someone is actually trying to kill you, it is just a bit different.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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