Armed Security at Churches Is Becoming a New Normal - Page 3

Armed Security at Churches Is Becoming a New Normal

This is a discussion on Armed Security at Churches Is Becoming a New Normal within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Most of what I seen at churches is people showing up to with a sob story hoping for a handout. In services most of what ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Most of what I seen at churches is people showing up to with a sob story hoping for a handout.

    In services most of what I've seen can only be categorized as religious insanity. I was at a revival meeting once and the second the Pastor started to take an offering a guy in the congregation stood up and started screaming "Repent and believe in the Gospel!" I guess he didn't like offerings.

    Two lesbians showed up in my church one morning and started making out in the middle of service. There was a drunk guy who kept yelling HALELUJAH!!!!!!!!! all through service and then there was a lady who wanted to wave homemade "prayer flags" during the worship service and became very indignant when she was asked to stop because GAWD Himself had sent her there to do that.

    All those incidents were a hassle but the weren't really dangerous.
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Fizban's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The Tree of Life Synagogue shootings occurred October 27, 2018. Not a church, but still a house of worship, attacked on that basis.
    You are correct... I never said these types of venues were immune. I simply said that its incredibly uncommon.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Most of what I seen at churches is people showing up to with a sob story hoping for a handout.

    In services most of what I've seen can only be categorized as religious insanity. I was at a revival meeting once and the second the Pastor started to take an offering a guy in the congregation stood up and started screaming "Repent and believe in the Gospel!" I guess he didn't like offerings.

    Two lesbians showed up in my church one morning and started making out in the middle of service. There was a drunk guy who kept yelling HALELUJAH!!!!!!!!! all through service and then there was a lady who wanted to wave homemade "prayer flags" during the worship service and became very indignant when she was asked to stop because GAWD Himself had sent her there to do that.

    All those incidents were a hassle but the weren't really dangerous.
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but IF what you say about worship services at your church is all true, may I humbly suggest you find another place to worship?
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but IF what you say about worship services at your church is all true, may I humbly suggest you find another place to worship?
    I'm not a church goer, but even I could come up with that conclusion.
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Psycho41's Avatar
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    The Vatican has its own armed, para-military unit: the Swiss Guard.

    While we have traditionally thought of church as a "safe" place, it is no longer the case. They are/were a soft target. With the increase of rejects that want to carry out mass shootings they will continue to go where they think they can do the most harm (schools and churches). Plus, religion has always been a lightning rod for violence.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Churches are certainly not immune from crime or troubles of man but the idea that out of all the places that people commonly go.. (store, mall, gas station, , movie theater, sports event, work, public street, parking lot, traffic light, fast food joint) those venues are probably 500 to 1 more likely to be the origin of violence when compared to the premises of a Church.
    I never go places where there are masses of unarmed, completely oblivious people walking around so completely distracted to the point that they wouldn't be aware if a nuke went off near them. I learned that such crowds attract...er...hunters. In the places not underlined above I may or may not be carrying a bag with a ballistic plate, a rifle, and plenty of reloads. I do this regularly whenever Mrs OldChap goes to any store where she has to walk in.

    More importantly though, I do these things not because of the high chances of something bad happening, but because of the number of times I've heard people claim such "bad things would never happen here" after bad things happened there. I leave the odds playing to the gamblers in Las Vegas. If I believed any and every possibility were truly so remote as to be totally insignificant, I would have no need of a gun to protect my family.
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  8. #37
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but IF what you say about worship services at your church is all true, may I humbly suggest you find another place to worship?
    That's a conglomeration of things I've witnessed at three different churches I've attended.

    The church I attend now to craziest thing that I've seen in service is a homeless person that threw a handful of change at the pastor and walked out. Well that and two random Pit Bulls that just came in the church one day
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  9. #38
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    Brother @Cypher ...I get the feeling you and I need to sit down and have a long talk about the churches you're choosing!

    On a lighter note. I served a very small congregation and after about six months, more people started attending. We were open to anyone who wanted to come in and we had a mix of many different races, but what was most fun was the kids. A Hispanic family had four children who had a little pet dog that the kids loved so much they would bring him to church. He was a Chihuahua and his name was Peanut. The kids would all sit on the front pew, (which was something adults NEVER do), and Peanut would sit at the end of that front pew beside the kids without making a sound, or even moving, and listen to me. He would tilt his head one way and another as I spoke. One of the hardest things I've ever done was preach a serious sermon while Peanut sat transfixed not 20 feet in front of me with his tail wagging!
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  10. #39
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    Our church is the largest in our rural community. While we are rural, we are also only 60 minutes from Montana's largest city. We have an organized, but informal security team with about 6 of us, but no organized schedule, but we can usually count on 3 of us being there. We maintain one position in the outer lobby with a full view of our parking lot, one interior "rover" who checks the back doors etc, and one who sits in the congregation.

    As we view it, our rural location, well off the beaten path, pretty much rules out the drifters and homeless, and there are VERY FEW homeless in Montana in the winter.

    Our most likely threats come from disgruntled spouses/ ex-spouses, child custody situations, marital counseling situations gone south. There is enough research on active shooters that we know that even if there is a specific target in mind, the shooter will likely engage other targets of opportunity.

    We consider our second threat source from random crazy/spree killers.

    Our third level of threat is that of armed robbery after the morning offering.

    We wear nothing unusual to mark us out, but many of the regulars know why we hang around the front of the church or wander the halls and check classrooms during church.

    We are planning on getting a local Tactical training outfit (mostly Cops I have worked with) to give us a walk through, talking options, and then paying to do some instruction & shooting together at their range afterwards with pizza.

    Personally, after reviewing the AARs from Southerland Springs Baptist Church, I carry my .357 Sig with the thought of having enough zip to penetrate level II body armor.
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  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
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    My son's pastor approached my son about getting armed. Unfortunately, it's in Iowa, where one needs a permit to buy a gun, and another to carry the gun. He may need the carry permit to even have it at the church, though he woudn't be actually carrying it. It would stay there all the time except when he takes it out to practice. But the closest public shooting range is now an hour away from his house. I have at least 5 ranges I know of within about a half hour drive.

    At my church, one of the pastors carries and a few others are thinking about it. Then we have the elders and one of them, at a minimum, carries. There are at least 3 or 4 others who carry in the services on the security team, plus me on property much of the time.
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  12. #41
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    After a year in Nam, I never expected I'd see the day I'd carry, much less CC in a House of Worship. Things change, sometimes for the worse. I got my first carry permit 12+ years ago and have carried my handgun to Bible Study and Church services ever since under the philosophy of always carry, never tell. There have been two exceptions. one is that in I have a nephew who was a preacher in a town north of Houston, I let him know that I carried, and now, since the Sutherland Springs, TX Church shooting, I have been a member of our small church Armed security team. The deacons, Pastor and most of the staff know that I carry.
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  13. #42
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    I live in the Charleston South Carolina area Almost 3 years ago we started a safety team and slowly working to a security team. After the Shooting Down Town Charleston. Going this way we are covered by SLED (South Carolina Law Enforcements Devision) we are small Church back in the woods a little way


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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    Our church is the largest in our rural community. While we are rural, we are also only 60 minutes from Montana's largest city. We have an organized, but informal security team with about 6 of us, but no organized schedule, but we can usually count on 3 of us being there. We maintain one position in the outer lobby with a full view of our parking lot, one interior "rover" who checks the back doors etc, and one who sits in the congregation.

    As we view it, our rural location, well off the beaten path, pretty much rules out the drifters and homeless, and there are VERY FEW homeless in Montana in the winter.

    Our most likely threats come from disgruntled spouses/ ex-spouses, child custody situations, marital counseling situations gone south. There is enough research on active shooters that we know that even if there is a specific target in mind, the shooter will likely engage other targets of opportunity.

    We consider our second threat source from random crazy/spree killers.

    Our third level of threat is that of armed robbery after the morning offering.

    We wear nothing unusual to mark us out, but many of the regulars know why we hang around the front of the church or wander the halls and check classrooms during church.

    We are planning on getting a local Tactical training outfit (mostly Cops I have worked with) to give us a walk through, talking options, and then paying to do some instruction & shooting together at their range afterwards with pizza.

    Personally, after reviewing the AARs from Southerland Springs Baptist Church, I carry my .357 Sig with the thought of having enough zip to penetrate level II body armor.
    The body armor issue is a troubling one. I know how to defeat it - doing so with a pistol is a trick. We have talked about an AR pistol in 5.56 with a 10.5" barrel, but the ammunition is the key. We're looking to find a vendor for M855A1. I may have to contact some of my old SWAT buddies to see if they have a source. I don't have any contacts inside HPD SWAT.

    I use a large computer bag like this one:

    Name:  SwissGear Messenger.jpg
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    It has an 11x15 inch Level III+ Lightweight steel plate in it (protects up to 30.06 AP) a trauma pad, and an AR pistol with some spare mags. With the AR removed, the bag can be hung around your neck with the carry strap for an impromptu vest. We need something like this in an inconspicuous location that could be quickly retrieved. Mine can be carried around, but it is much easier if I switch to a Level IIIA soft pad.

    We've also considered just putting an AR-10 (.308) in something like a Homeland Security bag, but we haven't made a decision yet.

    We're in a metro area of 2.6 million, so we have the full spectrum of threats, but like you, our most likely threats are similar.
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  15. #44
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    But "GOD" will keep you safe.
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmc0811 View Post
    But "GOD" will keep you safe.
    Sorry, that's not exactly what it says.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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