Confrontations with bad guys - Page 4

Confrontations with bad guys

This is a discussion on Confrontations with bad guys within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Cypher And throwing down on some random tweaker because he's walking in your general direction in a parking lot is what gets ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array MYMOMSSON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    And throwing down on some random tweaker because he's walking in your general direction in a parking lot is what gets you sent to prison
    And changing the circumstances to fit your opinion is lame at best.

  2. #47
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    May I suggest you set back, relax, and try to absorb some of the wisdom on this board before passing judgement?
    Much of what is shared here is real life experience, not book learned. Yea, not all is good advice. Take what you want and leave the rest.
    I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Are you asking me not to comment or offer an opinion? Are you assuming that because I'm new here that I have no training or experience of my own?

    I'm sorry there is some good information here but I've been on this board for less than 2 months and from what I've seen so far it rivals Glock Talk for Derp.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    Personally, I'm an amateur compared to some who frequent DC. Having a little personal experience with gangs/thugs/dirtbags/etc. I'm inclined to agree with most of what the article puts forth. One part that I don't is not reporting having drawn my sidearm. Not for fear of the dirtbag calling, but to put the encounter on record in case someone else runs into the same dirtbag.
    This article (really an old post from ARFCOM by someone with unknown credentials and experience) has been floating around the Internet for longer than I have, I think I first read it in 2007. Since then I've read some postings from from people who's credentials and experience I do know (Masaad Ayoob being one of them) and they say it's really bad advice. So I'm going to go with that.

  3. #48
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MYMOMSSON View Post
    And changing the circumstances to fit your opinion is lame at best.
    I'm not changing the circumstances to fit my opinion. Taking the story as written, you've got two unknown people walking toward you in a parking lot. They have done nothing that could be construed as an overt threat and they've certainly done nothing that would justify a deadly force response but the author is suggesting that you draw on them. Go ahead, follow his advice and when the cops show up try to justify your actions by telling them "The "perps" executed a classic fan out manuever. I was in fear of my life so I drew" in Colorado that's a felony.

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  5. #49
    Member Array Skolnick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1911A1 View Post
    An offense committed with full knowledge that it is indeed an offense is, by any definition, a criminal act ... Sometimes it is indeed necessary to go against the law ... such an act is still a criminal act...at the time.
    Better!

    Going by what was actually written in Post #10, M1911A1 makes no allowance for immoral or unethical laws. In Post #42, he does.

    I fully agree that an act that is illegal is, by definition, illegal. That being said, legal is not the determination of moral or ethical.

    I believe that illegal and moral are not mutually exclusive.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I'm not changing the circumstances to fit my opinion. Taking the story as written, you've got two unknown people walking toward you in a parking lot. They have done nothing that could be construed as an overt threat and they've certainly done nothing that would justify a deadly force response but the author is suggesting that you draw on them. Go ahead, follow his advice and when the cops show up try to justify your actions by telling them "The "perps" executed a classic fan out manuever. I was in fear of my life so I drew" in Colorado that's a felony.
    You are correct in that we actually know nothing about the author and the reliability of his credentials/experiences.

    I do think, that there are plenty of gold nuggets in here.....a lot comes down, after the fact, to what we can reasonably articulate. In your example above.....the guys start to "fan out" so you begin to take some evasive actions, like moving to cover, while watching them and checking your 6. You move far enough away that in order to maintain their spacing, they then have to continue on OR they alter their course to stay on an intercept course. If they alter their vector to maintain their approach to you, then its time to increase your defensive posture and I would openly draw at that point though not yet point in.....I could reasonably articulate that based upon their total actions, I had reasonable cause for defensive actions.

    In my (sadly) short career {they told me I'd gotten too old to work the streets} as a Reserve Deputy, I've had the chance to see the total disregard that violent criminals have towards others.
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
    - Ronald Reagan

  7. #51
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
    Better!

    Going by what was actually written in Post #10, M1911A1 makes no allowance for immoral or unethical laws. In Post #42, he does.

    I fully agree that an act that is illegal is, by definition, illegal. That being said, legal is not the determination of moral or ethical.

    I believe that illegal and moral are not mutually exclusive.
    Corrie Ten Boom went to prison for illegally hiding Jews in her home in Nazi occupied Holland
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  8. #52
    Member Array M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
    ...I believe that illegal and moral are not mutually exclusive.
    I agree.
    (See Post #42.)
    Steve
    Retired Leathersmith and Practical Shooter

    "Qui desiderat pacem, pręparet bellum."

  9. #53
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    I do think, that there are plenty of gold nuggets in here.....a lot comes down, after the fact, to what we can reasonably articulate. In your example above.....the guys start to "fan out" so you begin to take some evasive actions, like moving to cover, while watching them and checking your 6. You move far enough away that in order to maintain their spacing, they then have to continue on OR they alter their course to stay on an intercept course. If they alter their vector to maintain their approach to you, then its time to increase your defensive posture and I would openly draw at that point though not yet point in.....I could reasonably articulate that based upon their total actions, I had reasonable cause for defensive actions.
    He didn't say any of that he said draw.

    I didn't say the whole post was bad and I didn't mean to implicate you in my assessment of it.

    Believe it or not I've been in this situation and I drew but not before I'd backed up as far as I could (I literally had my back to a car) and asked the guys to leave me alone 3 times. I didn't draw as soon as the "executed a classic fan out manuever" (which they really did BTW).

    I also had an incident in which I threw down on someone in the same place and was dead wrong. I was going to work one night and I saw a guy walking through the parking lot. He walked through a hole in the fence and about a second later I heard a gun shot. I took cover and when I looked up the same guy was backing through the fence with his hands out, not up really just out. I drew on him and (thank God) he took off running. I never knew what actually happened. I never saw him with a gun, the cops never found a gun and no one was arrested. There are some doomsday prepper people who have property that butts up to that fence and I think one of them fired a "warning shot" at him or he set off a booby trap on their gate. What he didn't do was anything that justified me pointing a gun at him.

    I committed a felony that night. I learned my lesson and as a result I'm extremely cautious when it comes to any kind of use of force.
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  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Are you asking me not to comment or offer an opinion? Are you assuming that because I'm new here that I have no training or experience of my own?

    I don't assume anything. My comment is based on your own posts over the last few weeks. In almost every thread you have taken an argumentative tone in your reply. Simply suggesting that less attitude might be advantageous to your experience here.

    I'm sorry there is some good information here but I've been on this board for less than 2 months and from what I've seen so far it rivals Glock Talk for Derp.



    This article (really an old post from ARFCOM by someone with unknown credentials and experience) has been floating around the Internet for longer than I have, I think I first read it in 2007. Since then I've read some postings from from people who's credentials and experience I do know (Masaad Ayoob being one of them) and they say it's really bad advice. So I'm going to go with that.
    Actually, I believe it predates ARFCOM. Yea, I've been around since before internet.
    As for credentials, I've taken one class with Mas. It was well worth the time and money spent. The biggest gain for me was in being able to articulate why I took whatever action I deemed necessary at the time with the information that was available in that moment.


    Oh, if you are interested, check out "Dead Clients Don't Pay". There is some very good information that may be worth reading if you approach it with an open mind.
    Democracy:
    Two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
    Freedom:
    A well armed lamb contesting the vote.

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    He didn't say any of that he said draw.

    I didn't say the whole post was bad and I didn't mean to implicate you in my assessment of it.

    Believe it or not I've been in this situation and I drew but not before I'd backed up as far as I could (I literally had my back to a car) and asked the guys to leave me alone 3 times. I didn't draw as soon as the "executed a classic fan out manuever" (which they really did BTW).

    I also had an incident in which I threw down on someone in the same place and was dead wrong. I was going to work one night and I saw a guy walking through the parking lot. He walked through a hole in the fence and about a second later I heard a gun shot. I took cover and when I looked up the same guy was backing through the fence with his hands out, not up really just out. I drew on him and (thank God) he took off running. I never knew what actually happened. I never saw him with a gun, the cops never found a gun and no one was arrested. There are some doomsday prepper people who have property that butts up to that fence and I think one of them fired a "warning shot" at him or he set off a booby trap on their gate. What he didn't do was anything that justified me pointing a gun at him.

    I committed a felony that night. I learned my lesson and as a result I'm extremely cautious when it comes to any kind of use of force.
    Sir: No offense taken by me and I didn't think you were pointing fingers.

    Did the responding officers tell you that you committed a felony that night??? Just curious. If I had been the responding officer, had you articulated to me what you had seen and done, I would not have arrested you. I might have told you it was perfectly fine to draw and be prepared, maybe at low ready. You saw activity, heard a (possible) gunshot CLOSE-BY, and again saw unexplained actions by someone in close connection with the gunshot. While you drew, you also demonstrated restraint and waited for further development. I don't see a problem with your reaction.

    I can also see how it has made you more aware of the many complexities and uncertainties that are more the rule than the exception.
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
    - Ronald Reagan

  12. #56
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSKnight View Post
    Actually, I believe it predates ARFCOM. Yea, I've been around since before internet.
    As for credentials, I've taken one class with Mas. It was well worth the time and money spent. The biggest gain for me was in being able to articulate why I took whatever action I deemed necessary at the time with the information that was available in that moment.


    Oh, if you are interested, check out "Dead Clients Don't Pay". There is some very good information that may be worth reading if you approach it with an open mind.
    I think it was in direct response to a robbery that happened to another ARFCOM member. That that thread is also good reading.

    The only objection that I have to that post is the part about drawing on two random Yo-Yos. That and the part where he implies that drinking while carrying is a good idea. The stuff about mindset of the criminals matches my experience as well. That one paragraph though taints the whole well.

  13. #57
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    Did the responding officers tell you that you committed a felony that night??? Just curious. If I had been the responding officer, had you articulated to me what you had seen and done, I would not have arrested you. I might have told you it was perfectly fine to draw and be prepared, maybe at low ready. You saw activity, heard a (possible) gunshot CLOSE-BY, and again saw unexplained actions by someone in close connection with the gunshot. While you drew, you also demonstrated restraint and waited for further development. I don't see a problem with your reaction.

    When the cops showed up the other guy was gone. I told them that I had drawn my sidearm because I felt circumstances justified it and that's all I said. I think the other guy was very close to the shot because I was YELLING AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS at him and he acted like he literally couldn't hear me.
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  14. #58
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-/5-988015/?page=1

    The realities of the street post was a response to this thread, posted on ARFCOM in September (?) of 2010. IMO it's more informative than the realities of the street thread.

    The short version is the author (Blitz) was enjoying cigars and drinks at a friend's office after hours when they were robbed. The criminal was actually in the middle of the group before anyone even noticed him. He herded them into a back room (always a REALLY bad sign) and began to search them. The robber actually finds the author's empty holster and the author convinces him he left the gun in the car because he knew he was going to be drinking he was actually laying on it

    The author saw his chance and drew his gun from under his body THE INSTANT the criminal heard the safety come off he turned and began firing. (If I learned nothing else from reading the story I learned that)

    The criminal is eventually caught and got a greater percentage of hits (Meaning he hit Blitz more than Blitz hit him) than Blitz who was hit with the first shot
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  15. #59
    Member Array MYMOMSSON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I'm not changing the circumstances to fit my opinion. Taking the story as written, you've got two unknown people walking toward you in a parking lot. They have done nothing that could be construed as an overt threat and they've certainly done nothing that would justify a deadly force response but the author is suggesting that you draw on them. Go ahead, follow his advice and when the cops show up try to justify your actions by telling them "The "perps" executed a classic fan out manuever. I was in fear of my life so I drew" in Colorado that's a felony.
    This what he said

    When to draw

    Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.



    Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

    I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough scumbags!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

    Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

    Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some dirtbag up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

    Not at all what you said.
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  16. #60
    Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MYMOMSSON View Post
    This what he said

    When to draw

    Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.



    Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

    I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough scumbags!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

    Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

    Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some dirtbag up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

    Not at all what you said.
    Show them your gun if that doesn't deter them draw. Then moved to cover then try to move away.

    I read commentary on that paragraph from a bunch of lawyers every single one of them has said that as written that paragraph is describing a felony

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