Texas church mass shooting stopped by good guy with a gun - Page 5

Texas church mass shooting stopped by good guy with a gun

This is a discussion on Texas church mass shooting stopped by good guy with a gun within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; My sincere condolences to the victims and their families. Hats off to brave patriots that prevented a major massacre. I'm also glad there were no ...

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Thread: Texas church mass shooting stopped by good guy with a gun

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array CommonCents's Avatar
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    My sincere condolences to the victims and their families. Hats off to brave patriots that prevented a major massacre. I'm also glad there were no friendly fire incidents with the armed response of several there. I'm guessing they were not all part of the security team.

    Hopefully the video serves as a deterrent showing that Churches are no longer soft targets. These stories of gun defense saving lives finally get around the propaganda media censoring them, via net and social media.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonCents View Post
    My sincere condolences to the victims and their families. Hats off to brave patriots that prevented a major massacre. I'm also glad there were no friendly fire incidents with the armed response of several there. I'm guessing they were not all part of the security team.

    Hopefully the video serves as a deterrent showing that Churches are no longer soft targets. These stories of gun defense saving lives finally get around the propaganda media censoring them, via net and social media.
    That church is no longer a soft target, but I have my doubts that the majority of churches are taking the same defensive tactics and policies. "Things like that don't happen here" will prevail in many--far too many--churches and GF zones.
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  3. #63
    Member Array Nifty's Avatar
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    Look at the woman in the red, in the middle on the right hand side of the isle. She takes something to cover the person next to her. Reminds me of the ballistic sheets I've seen sold everywhere now.
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  5. #64
    Distinguished Member Array xXxHeavy's Avatar
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    ....as per the Jersey City PD dispatcher a few weeks back ...."Stay Alert, Stay Alive".
    Why did the Moron buy a ladder...... he's takin' his case to a higher court.

    Who was it that said, " I wasn't planning on going for a run today.....then the Game Wardens came out of nowhere".

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array Risasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Where did you get that data?
    Also who is it relating to Police?
    Police involved shooting are likely different than civilian shootings since in the end police have to put hands on, also if your averaging shootings most of them probably occur when officers pull people over which would not reflect good data since CCW holders don't pull people over

    I would recommend reading fighting smarter by Tom Givens. His book reflects shootings for civilians occur farther than LE shootings probably due to the above reasons i've mentioned.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure that "rule" of 3's comes from the FBI statistics on shootings involving agents or law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty. So the rule of 3's is really only good if one wants to practice for failure. I tried to quick pull that from FBI's website, but they make it too hard to easily find it.



    Since you mention Tom Givens;

    "I think it is dangerous to base all of your training on averages, as each fight will be different. If you have one foot in a block of ice and one in a campfire, on average you'll be comfortable." - Tom Givens


    ---

    Addendum: I did some more searching, but my Google-Fu is weak...it would seem that rule of 3's is really old though. Like decades old from the 70's or 80's. I did however find this put out by Claude Werner some years ago;

    https://tacticalprofessor.files.word...r-w-tables.pdf

    "Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots
    fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial
    response was to fire until empty...The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most
    defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders
    frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting..."

    Regardless, I'll still continue to shoot at various distances out to 25+ yards, from different positions two-hand, two-hand weak hand, single handed and single off hand. I'll still continue to practice my draw (timed) frequently at home (I just try to mix them in w/ callisthenics and kettleball workout), using dry fire w/ laser. I'll still continue to try and run at least a couple hundred rounds a month at the range. And I'll still continue to do a class or three every year, including force-on-force, with friends if possible. And I'll also still continue to carry a spare mag or three on most occasions.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    Fighting Smarter by Tom Givens appears to be out of stock everywhere, except for a Kindle version. Any idea where to get a print copy?
    Crap I would reach out to Tom Givens directly through his website rangemaster.com. When I met Mr. Givens excluding police and military students he had had something like 70 CCW students involved in shootings. At that time only two of his students had lost their gun fights, they paid with their lives and they forgot to bring a gun.

    IIRC the average distance was around 5-7 yards with the longest being about 22-24 yards.
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  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risasi View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure that "rule" of 3's comes from the FBI statistics on shootings involving agents or law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty. So the rule of 3's is really only good if one wants to practice for failure. I tried to quick pull that from FBI's website, but they make it too hard to easily find it.



    Since you mention Tom Givens;

    "I think it is dangerous to base all of your training on averages, as each fight will be different. If you have one foot in a block of ice and one in a campfire, on average you'll be comfortable." - Tom Givens
    I would be interested in that data because one I've never seen it i hear people talk about it. Unless they have dash cam how does one predict the time? This has been said for years so this was way before dash cam or body cams, also how does one measure the distance without video. As we know things happen a .22 LR looks like a .44 magnum. Shots fired could be pretty easy but again, if the bad guy was using a revolver, got away, and how do we know for sure. Again I'm assuming that most these shootings happened while LE pulled someone over. So i'm not sure they are a good example of happens as a permit holder.
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  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Risasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    I would be interested in that data because one I've never seen it i hear people talk about it. Unless they have dash cam how does one predict the time? This has been said for years so this was way before dash cam or body cams, also how does one measure the distance without video. As we know things happen a .22 LR looks like a .44 magnum. Shots fired could be pretty easy but again, if the bad guy was using a revolver, got away, and how do we know for sure. Again I'm assuming that most these shootings happened while LE pulled someone over. So i'm not sure they are a good example of happens as a permit holder.
    Agreed.

    And sorry, I just posted a update with link from Claude Werner's website in my previous post. That's the closest I can find to this rule of 3's. He has some good data, but I don't like relying on averages. At our church our longest shot is about 20+ yards, so I regularly will shoot out that far with a couple different carry guns I use. It's not the lion's share of my shooting, but I at least run a few mags through at that distance every range session and focus on the fundamentals; stance, sight picture and focus on front sight and trigger control. Some days I'm great and would be proud to show my target, other days...not so much.
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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risasi View Post
    Agreed.

    And sorry, I just posted a update with link from Claude Werner's website in my previous post. That's the closest I can find to this rule of 3's. He has some good data, but I don't relying on averages. At our church our longest shot is about 20+ yards, so I regularly will shoot out that far with a couple different carry guns I use. It's not the lion's share of my shooting, but I at least run a few mags through at that distance every range session and focus on the fundamentals; stance, sight picture and focus on front sight and trigger control. Some days I'm great and would be proud to show my target, other days...not so much.
    I think most people state it because they heard a guy who heard a guy repeat it so it must be true. I don't doubt that if your a Patrol Officer (which is probably the majority of police) the shootings your involved in are occur roughly right after. "SIR/MAM do you know why I pulled you over?" So I ask does that data reflect the reason for me carrying a gun? probably not because I don't pull people over. Besides being at work, which I"m on on a shooting range, qualifying Protective Service Officers and Special Police Officers in DC, I'm either in a stop and rob 7-11, in a supermarket, Home Depot, Church, or in the parking lot, or most of the time at Home (Always have a gun with a light at home).

    Stop and robs i'm usually pretty switched on when I enter and I always go to the back of the store right when I enter and kind of look around first. The distance from the refridgerator that holds the Pepsis and Cokes to the front of the stores where I visit is 7-10 yards.

    My grocery store I shop in is a Giant end cap to end cap is approximately 25-30 yards, now If I go into a Wegmans it can be up to 50.

    When I'm in church I sit usually in the middle but always on the end, distances vary from 10-50 yards.


    What I did based on Steve Fisher's (Sentinel Concepts) recommendation is I carry around a Range Finder (that I use for bow hunting) and will get distances in stores that I frequent. End Cap to end cap, distance from the refridgerator in the 7-11 to the counter , length of an Aisle in the Home Depot I visit etc...... then I practice a lot of my drills based on that data.
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  11. #70
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    Biden thinks it's irrational for the Texas government to allow legal church carry. I'll bet when he goes to church that he'll have armed security.

    https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2019/1...es-irrational/
    "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." - Thomas Jefferson

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  12. #71
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    I haven't read the whole thread yet, but here is the only full version of the video I see. Please note that it cannot be copied.



    Someone tell me I'm wrong, but the reason for the edited versions seems (at least to me) to be that Google doesn't want the portion of the video where the actor gets shot to be viewed - claiming it is offensive.

    They don't seem to have any trouble with the actor shooting someone, just the actor getting shot. Tell me it ain't so.
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  13. #72
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    So I followed up on this by watching all the news I could. And was surprised at the coverage! ABC news was the only one that even mentioned the Parishioners being part of a Security team. Most of those I saw just said "A Parishioner with a gun stopped the shooter". There was no mention in any of the coverage about the 8 or so others that pulled guns. There was no mention of the possibility of a cross fire, or the possibility of friendly fire! They just kind of reported it as it was. They all noted that only this passed Sept. TX made Church carry possible unless the church was properly posted! I was surprised at this to say the least! DR
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  14. #73
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    It's scary to think that these folks have risen to the top of their party to run for the highest office of the land......as Ed Norton said " A Pox on them and all their ancestors".
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    Why did the Moron buy a ladder...... he's takin' his case to a higher court.

    Who was it that said, " I wasn't planning on going for a run today.....then the Game Wardens came out of nowhere".

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by NECCdude View Post
    Biden thinks it's irrational for the Texas government to allow legal church carry. I'll bet when he goes to church that he'll have armed security.

    https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2019/1...es-irrational/
    This whole incident proves just how wrong Shotgun joe is.
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  16. #75
    Senior Member Array BCC73's Avatar
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    Of course this is a tragedy and I make no light of that. The video serves as a great tool for us all !! Really has me thinking about a few things beyond the hesitation or inability to draw quickly for victim #1. My OWB carry at 2:30/3:00 comes into question---I can't get comfortable with IWB, but maybe I should ?? My Glock 43 is certainly for comfort---but maybe the G19 is a better choice these days ??
    I practice equally with both but past 10-15yds the G19 is much more accurate. There are so many scenarios we try to cover, but again this video is certainly enlightening for me.
    Thoughts & prayers go out to all involved....
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    I have the Right to remain silent....just NOT the ability !!!
    Carry Safe & Train hard !!

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