Amount of force serving a warrant - Page 3

Amount of force serving a warrant

This is a discussion on Amount of force serving a warrant within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ogmgGuM_5eo...

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Thread: Amount of force serving a warrant

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    I've been on quite a few raids, although obviously, I was nowhere near the first to enter - more like the last. Our SWAT people were some of the finest professionals I've ever worked with. They refused (successfully I might add) a couple of times when there was almost no intelligence on what they were up against. It is a credit to our command staff that their advice was respected.

    I can state in certain terms that they were not called unless the criteria for their inclusion in the process was met - armed, dangerous, history of violence, critical time constraints (evidence), hostages, or history of flight. There may have been some others. But in every case our team leaders instructed everyone about what I suppose was called "the rules of engagement" and did so in planning, and final briefing.

    SWAT's job, in our department was to save lives, not serve as a search and destroy team. Anyone who pointed a weapon at a child would have found himself/herself writing parking tickets in front of the mayor's home. I don't suppose many department chaplains were included in SWAT operations. I was incredibly honored to work with them.

    And BTW...I just remembered, the media was backed away to a position where they could not see anything we did - always. Even news aircraft were warned out of the area.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    When reading any article, I always consider the source. Here is some more on and by the author:

    https://slate.com/author/martin-j-sheil
    https://whowhatwhy.org/author/martin-j-sheil/
    https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/06/26/tr...s-scrutinized/

    Definitely not a fan of the current administration.
    What would have been more appropriate, given Sheil's IRS roots, is a story entitled "Why Lois Lerner Should Be Nervous." Don't hold your breath waiting.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerranger View Post
    I liked your post and the spirit it was intended in, But just because I am a gun owner does not make me any greater threat. Just the fact that you can now push a button and know I own guns should not trigger a SWAT response! Rodger Stone was accused of a Process crime. A phone call to him or his lawyer should have been enough. If I were accused of the same crime, and had previously appeared with my lawyer I would expect the same. The fact that I own a gun or two should not matter. Now if I were accused of threats, assault, murder, etc... Then bring it.
    Guess I did not make myself clear. My point was there was nothing to indicate this man was remotely a threat. I'm not saying a person with a gun should be considered a danger; that was just another issue in the point I was making.
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    Guess I did not make myself clear. My point was there was nothing to indicate this man was remotely a threat. I'm not saying a person with a gun should be considered a danger; that was just another issue in the point I was making.
    Correct. In Texas, it is sort of like Alaska. It is rare to encounter a home where their are no guns. Criminal history, or a history of contact with patrol officers for violence calls, was what we looked for.
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  7. #36
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Correct. In Texas, it is sort of like Alaska. It is rare to encounter a home where their are no guns. Criminal history, or a history of contact with patrol officers for violence calls, was what we looked for.
    Absolutely. And from my volunteer work for the sheriff's office here, when a deputy calls in a plate for a traffic stop, dispatch always informs the deputy whether the registered owner, or operator, has a carry permit. Carry permits here are very common. But I am sure that any officer would want to know whether or not the car they were walking up on might have firearms on board.
    "If you look like food, you will be eaten." Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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  8. #37
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    Hey, didn't I just call Roger Stone the smartest man on TV?
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    Absolutely. And from my volunteer work for the sheriff's office here, when a deputy calls in a plate for a traffic stop, dispatch always informs the deputy whether the registered owner, or operator, has a carry permit. Carry permits here are very common. But I am sure that any officer would want to know whether or not the car they were walking up on might have firearms on board.
    Of course, the cars with firearms which don't come back from dispatch as having a CCW are the ones you have to worry about, e.g. prohibited persons, bangers, etc. On the other hand, dispatch coming back with registered owner being a CCW is likely one of the lowest risk stops.
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  10. #39
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    Having served some warrants hereís my take. Sometimes itís nevessary to bring extra bodies and firepower depending on the intel. This was not one of those situations. They could have called and had him come in or showed up with a single car and he would have come along.

    This was a political move. Again sometimes itís warranted I wouldnít want to raid a house on someone whoís violent making threats to kill us who has history and potential but Iíve also made warrant arrests by knocking on a door and explaining the situation. 99% of the time when you go this route you get the respect you showed the individual and they are more respectful because you were respectful to them. This kind of political show makes all of us in Law Enforment look bad because just like the rest of these high profile media cases itís the only thing people see on tv.

  11. #40
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    The FBI is a police force that works for the Democrats. By the way Hillary lost because she wanted to raise taxes, take away our guns and bring a few million more Muslims here. She might have won in spite of all of that if she hadn't tried to make the white man look like monsters so that she could get the women's and minorities vote. To win an election you have to be all inclusive.
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    Stone would have turned himself in, for goodness sake.

    For crying' out loud, this was pinnacle of stupid.
    In order for someone to turn ones' self in one must be aware that he/she is wanted.

    In the case under discussion it is my understanding that the first notice Mr. Stone received was when his home was breached at 5:00AM by 2 dozen agents in body armor carrying automatic weapons, supported by armored vehicles.

    I agree with your "pinnacle of stupid" comment, but I suggest that the pinnacle was built in a government office, not Mr. Stone's living room.

    I retired from law enforcement nearly 24 years ago, but even then judges were regularly adding conditions to arrest and search warrants, such as "to be served only during daylight hours", or "no destructive force permitted". Excessive or overly-aggressive behavior in serving warrants is not a new phenomenon.
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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    In order for someone to turn ones' self in one must be aware that he/she is wanted.

    In the case under discussion it is my understanding that the first notice Mr. Stone received was when his home was breached at 5:00AM by 2 dozen agents in body armor carrying automatic weapons, supported by armored vehicles.

    I agree with your "pinnacle of stupid" comment, but I suggest that the pinnacle was built in a government office, not Mr. Stone's living room.

    I retired from law enforcement nearly 24 years ago, but even then judges were regularly adding conditions to arrest and search warrants, such as "to be served only during daylight hours", or "no destructive force permitted". Excessive or overly-aggressive behavior in serving warrants is not a new phenomenon.
    Yep. Sometimes an "over-the-top" show of force is all that keeps people from getting hurt. I agree with that tactic. I had another department Chaplain tell me of the nightmare his department faced when they conducted a dynamic raid only to discover their intelligence was horrible and several small children were inside the target. He told me it was his considered opinion that those children would be emotionally scarred for life, but even more frightening was his concern that the oldest male child was so angry at what the officers did that the Chaplain felt that young man was definitely going to retaliate some how, some day. Both he and a psychologist worked tirelessly with him, but the anger would always seethe just below the surface. We agreed that the raid had one casualty no one expected.
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  14. #43
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    In all my years on the job I have seen very few alleged white collar criminals arrested via SWAT. Even some who had a serious criminal history. I would estimate that 90% of the time their lawyers worked things out with prosecutors to have them surrender at a designated place and time. And the other 10% of the time they were arrested while serving a search warrant (sans the use of a special response team). This thing was just overblown security theater to make someone look bad or to make someone else look good, depends on your angle. Either way it's no different than when a disgruntled teenager "SWAT's" his school teacher for giving him an F.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by G26Raven View Post
    I am sure that any officer would want to know whether or not the car they were walking up on might have firearms on board.
    As in, when the computer says the owner of the vehicle does not own guns, you are to approach said vehicle knowing that there is no way the occupants will have loaded guns on their persons?


    Quote Originally Posted by GpTom View Post
    By the way Hillary lost because she wanted to raise taxes, take away our guns and bring a few million more Muslims here. She might have won in spite of all of that if she hadn't tried to make the white man look like monsters so that she could get the women's and minorities vote. To win an election you have to be all inclusive.
    When it is a close game, EVERY miscue costs you the win: That failed double play in the 2nd inning; or that bad start out of the gate; or that double fault in the first set.

    When you lose the Super Bowl by 20 points, you can laugh when #26 gets hit, spins around, and runs the wrong way during the final possession; when you lose by one, it's not so funny.

    Hillary lost because of several mistakes. The basket of deplorables remark galvanized the opposition, the revelation that Debbie Wassermann-Schultz fixed the primaries against Sanders cost her the support -- and votes -- of some Bernie supporters, the e-mail scandal didn't help, and then there was the image of them pushing her into the limo at the 9/11 memorial. In all probability not one of those things sank her, but all of them added up to a Trump win.

    On the other hand, if Trump had lost the close election, it would have been because of the relentless use of "Pocahontas", and/or the McCain remark, and/or the Access Hollywood tape, and/or the Megan Kelly bleeding comment, and/or the non-stop Tweeting.
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  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array GpTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
    As in, when the computer says the owner of the vehicle does not own guns, you are to approach said vehicle knowing that there is no way the occupants will have loaded guns on their persons?




    When it is a close game, EVERY miscue costs you the win: That failed double play in the 2nd inning; or that bad start out of the gate; or that double fault in the first set.

    When you lose the Super Bowl by 20 points, you can laugh when #26 gets hit, spins around, and runs the wrong way during the final possession; when you lose by one, it's not so funny.

    Hillary lost because of several mistakes. The basket of deplorables remark galvanized the opposition, the revelation that Debbie Wassermann-Schultz fixed the primaries against Sanders cost her the support -- and votes -- of some Bernie supporters, the e-mail scandal didn't help, and then there was the image of them pushing her into the limo at the 9/11 memorial. In all probability not one of those things sank her, but all of them added up to a Trump win.

    On the other hand, if Trump had lost the close election, it would have been because of the relentless use of "Pocahontas", and/or the McCain remark, and/or the Access Hollywood tape, and/or the Megan Kelly bleeding comment, and/or the non-stop Tweeting.
    Yeah! Making a bunch of Bernie supporters mad helped too.

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