Parkland deputy who did not respond to shooter arrested. - Page 4

Parkland deputy who did not respond to shooter arrested.

This is a discussion on Parkland deputy who did not respond to shooter arrested. within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 You would owe me a donut. The fatal funnel is exactly that, and is not a fixed location. In such a ...

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Thread: Parkland deputy who did not respond to shooter arrested.

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    You would owe me a donut. The fatal funnel is exactly that, and is not a fixed location. In such a situation, I want the bad guy coming around the corner to me, not the other way around.
    You have an example of a two room public school with only one door in and out? I'm pretty familiar with fatal funnels. I would be interested in what you've been taught. I went through training with active SWAT teams and in every instance the funnel is caused by a structure(s) that limits movement to a single path. Anything not related to a structure may be dealt with much more easily.

    A public school only has funnels IF an actor is actively guarding EVERY occurrence that is created by some kind of movement-limiting structure. How likely is that? Besides, if by some miracle he is doing that, keeping him thinking you're about to make entry keeps him from killing innocents.
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  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array RedSafety's Avatar
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    I hope they revoke his retirement retroactively and makes him pay the families of the deceased he helped kill.
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    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    My experience doing CQB training was usually that the 2nd guy through the door would get shot, but the flaw was that the bad guy knew what the training scenario was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Training has changed very significantly in the last few years. Of course, I can't speak for Broward County, but ours underwent a huge overhaul - even before I retired. Our policy stated "immediate entry".

    @Chief1297 I agree...but I'm sure you know the time-honored tactic of getting little fish to roll over to catch bigger ones? One of the real issues though, will be finding a way to straighten out the FBI.
    Immediate entry alone is against every principle of safe entry on any reactionary unit. I don't give a crap what some policy maker decided based on the uproar from citizens or not. It's BAD policy, PERIOD
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  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    While that may be ideal, that essentially makes the concept of the SRO pointless since there is just one. I will maintain my stance that I think his inaction was wrong, but not criminal. He had an opportunity to make a difference in peopleís lives, and he didnít take it. Thankfully This guy/didnt sit around and wait for others to arrive.



    To each there comes in their lifetime a special moment when they are figuratively tapped on the shoulder and offered the chance to do a very special thing, unique to them and fitted to their talents. What a tragedy if that moment finds them unprepared or unqualified for that which could have been their finest hour. - Winston Churchill
    That's the tap I'm waiting for before making entry alone. That tap means we're good to go, move into the funnel. Hopefully the two entering have some semblance of working as a cohesive team taking sectors upon entering the funnel.

    It was drilled into us very clearly, NO entry into a funnel without that second or more officers ready to enter at the same time. What they told us was a ONE man entry was extremely risky and always unwarranted. IF you don't follow the proper tactics, you are setting yourself up for failure [ shot/killed ].
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    You have an example of a two room public school with only one door in and out? I'm pretty familiar with fatal funnels. I would be interested in what you've been taught. I went through training with active SWAT teams and in every instance the funnel is caused by a structure(s) that limits movement to a single path. Anything not related to a structure may be dealt with much more easily.

    A public school only has funnels IF an actor is actively guarding EVERY occurrence that is created by some kind of movement-limiting structure. How likely is that? Besides, if by some miracle he is doing that, keeping him thinking you're about to make entry keeps him from killing innocents.
    Windows are one of 4 fatal funnels in swat training at HK. It doesn't have to be a limiting structure, but most usually is as you stated.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Immediate entry alone is against every principle of safe entry on any reactionary unit. I don't give a crap what some policy maker decided based on the uproar from citizens or not. It's BAD policy, PERIOD
    Unless you happen to be the one trapped inside and needing help, even if it is only distracting the shooter from his intended purpose.

    For LEOs not willing to take the risks, then don't take the job that puts one at risk. Pretty simple philosophy.
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    That's the tap I'm waiting for before making entry alone. That tap means we're good to go, move into the funnel. Hopefully the two entering have some semblance of working as a cohesive team taking sectors upon entering the funnel.

    It was drilled into us very clearly, NO entry into a funnel without that second or more officers ready to enter at the same time. What they told us was a ONE man entry was extremely risky and always unwarranted. IF you don't follow the proper tactics, you are setting yourself up for failure [ shot/killed ].
    Maybe...but if you violate departmental policy, you don't wear the badge long. Times have changed. There are some recent examples of single officers making a difference in the outcome. I haven't heard of any being killed doing so.

    @OldVet yup. Because of the training/re-training cycles every patrol officer was keenly aware of the risk. Our department started issuing the heavier tactical vests to be carried in the patrol unit. It was slow, because of the expense, but the Chief forced the issue on the bean counters. Some more senior patrol officers were trained on and issued ballistic shields. The unspoken dictum was, "Take the risk or take off the badge." To their credit, I didn't hear of anyone leaving because of the new policy. Most of our officers felt they would go in regardless.
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novarider View Post
    If you were outside a school and hear an active shooter would you stand by and wait for backup knowing kids were being shot?

    I know it's a different time now then when you went through training and I've never been a cop but I cannot fathom not helping. A lot of kids could be shot in the 3-4 minutes (or longer) it takes for backup to arrive.
    I would do as I was trained to do and wait for a second or more leo's before entering a fatal funnel with active shooter/s inside. Training has a purpose, the entry training was honed over many dead leo's bodies who entered alone without waiting for at least one more to make an entry.
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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Maybe...but if you violate departmental policy, you don't wear the badge long. Times have changed. There are some recent examples of single officers making a difference in the outcome.
    Dept policy would be challenged in the courts, I'd be keeping my badge after it was adjudicated. Marines don't enter a building in Iraq alone, nor does swat training teach entering alone. There's a LOT of professional schools like HK that could be brought into a court proceeding to testify one man entries are a fools mission, and prior incidents and why that training was instituted.

    They'd be changing their policy after the court case. Policy makers have NO business making directives that go against EVERY formal entry training school in the country, and then there's the military who doesn't allow one man entries, also for the same reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    That's the tap I'm waiting for before making entry alone. That tap means we're good to go, move into the funnel. Hopefully the two entering have some semblance of working as a cohesive team taking sectors upon entering the funnel.

    It was drilled into us very clearly, NO entry into a funnel without that second or more officers ready to enter at the same time. What they told us was a ONE man entry was extremely risky and always unwarranted. IF you don't follow the proper tactics, you are setting yourself up for failure [ shot/killed ].
    He stood outside while defenseless children were slaughtered. Then she shooter left the scene. He did nothing to mitigate the situation. There is no bigger failure than that. If your back up arrives and you make entry after the shooting is over, you have done nothing to help those kids. People who are not willing to take risks to save lives should consider their careers choices.
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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    He stood outside while defenseless children were slaughtered. Then she shooter left the scene. He did nothing to mitigate the situation. There is no bigger failure than that. If your back up arrives and you make entry after the shooting is over, you have done nothing to help those kids. People who are not willing to take risks to save lives should consider their careers choices.
    Being on an entry team is accepting risks, entering a fatal funnel alone is not an acceptable risk, no matter how distasteful you may find that to be
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    I would do as I was trained to do and wait for a second or more leo's before entering a fatal funnel with active shooter/s inside. Training has a purpose, the entry training was honed over many dead leo's bodies who entered alone without waiting for at least one more to make an entry.
    Training changes due to events and circumstance. "Wait for SWAT" became the procedure in many (most) departments until it became obvious that waiting meant mass casualties. Ever since Columbine the call has been changing to "Get there firstest with the mostest."
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  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Unless you happen to be the one trapped inside and needing help, even if it is only distracting the shooter from his intended purpose.

    For LEOs not willing to take the risks, then don't take the job that puts one at risk. Pretty simple philosophy.
    All that touchy feely BS means diddly squat to proper entry procedures that have been standardized for decades now. LEO's take plenty of risks, swat entry teams take even more risks. No one is expected to take unnecessary risks though.

    The training doesn't change, the policies change from proper tactics to unsafe tactics based on public opinion. I know of no swat school in the US that's training an entry team to make entry as a one man mission. There's a reason for that whether you or anyone else understands or likes it.
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  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Training changes due to events and circumstance. "Wait for SWAT" became the procedure in many (most) departments until it became obvious that waiting meant mass casualties. Ever since Columbine the call has been changing to "Get there firstest with the mostest."
    Don't have to wait for swat, any other leo will do to make entry into a fatal funnel. Changing policy to cater to the public who doesn't have the first clue about making entry risks is a fools errand. Those who've not made entry on a known BG with a gun can have any opinion they like, even as that opinion is an uneducated opinion lacking any real world knowledge or experience.

    It's so wonderful to read all the posts from members who've never been trained in entry nor ever made entry on a known BG inside in an unknown location,.
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