NICS System Getting Sued

NICS System Getting Sued

This is a discussion on NICS System Getting Sued within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I think (hope) this is the right forum for this. Interesting decision by the Court of Appeals about the train wreck that is the NICS ...

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24
Like Tree64Likes

Thread: NICS System Getting Sued

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,528

    NICS System Getting Sued

    I think (hope) this is the right forum for this.

    Interesting decision by the Court of Appeals about the train wreck that is the NICS system:

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawsuit-b...-proceed-court

    "Once the examiner's inquiry revealed that the Columbia PD was the arresting agency and that it had the report, she was required to contact it. Her decision not to do so involved no permissible exercise of discretion," Judge Roger Gregory wrote for the federal panel in Friday's ruling, adding, "The government can claim no immunity in these circumstances."
    Anybody that knows anything about NICS knows that a great many crimes would be prevented, or a least postponed, if NICS actually served any useful purpose other than confusing law abiding citizens for criminals.
    Last edited by OldChap; August 30th, 2019 at 10:05 PM.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  2. #2
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Medina, Ohio
    Posts
    751
    Ummm, I am sorry, but a properly working NICS system would not have prevented any murder. If the guy hadn't bought his gun, he would have stolen one, bought a stolen one, or bought one privately. Fail.
    NECCdude, baren, Havok and 5 others like this.
    Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, American Legion

  3. #3
    Moderator
    Array msgt/ret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    15,067
    Itís going to be interesting how this pans out, NICs was not informed of the murderers drug arrest so who do you blame???
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
    A 9MM MAY expand to .45 but a 45ACP will never shrink to 9MM.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    DefensiveCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,528
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinRohrer View Post
    Ummm, I am sorry, but a properly working NICS system would not have prevented any murder. If the guy hadn't bought his gun, he would have stolen one, bought a stolen one, or bought one privately. Fail.
    Probably, but until we have a system that actually works, no one can say that for certain. Compared to law enforcement databases, NICS is abysmal in doing anything. There are thousands of misidentifications every day. You can say this guy could have gotten a gun another way, but the fact is he didn't even have to try. NICS, and the bureaucrats who serve at it's feet, are basically useless.

    What is known for certain is that in this case the system failed and people died. Say what you want. I just wouldn't say it to the families who lost loved ones.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    The Florida Twilight Zone
    Posts
    31,652
    Be prepared for even longer waits.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  7. #6
    Distinguished Member
    Array 1942bull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    SE PA
    Posts
    1,971
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Be prepared for even longer waits.
    @OldVet , the wisdom of the aged shows in your words. We have seen it. Whan a complex system fails the cure is always seen to be making it more complex. That is a recipe for greater failures. Mics works right in getting good guys approved. It is terrible when it comes to doing what it is supposed to do: stop bad guys disapproved. So make it more complicated for the good guys and than hope it finds some bad guys.

    NICs depends upon compliance by all civil and military authorities. But we know that the military foiled to report hundreds of domestic abusers and one became a mass killer. Some ststes ignore failures to report people who should be flagged. NICs staff failures are only found long after the mistaken approvals have been granted.

    So the solution will be to add time to the process when the real solution is to get competent Human Resources on the project and force compliance in reporting by severe penalties. You and I know from the military that the system was made to work by leaning on the people responsible for making the system work. It was far from perfect but it got the job done.
    M1911A1 and OldChap like this.
    "You don't hurt them if you don't hit them." Lt. Gen. Lewis "Chesty" Puller, USMC Retired

    USMC 9/59 through 9/69
    Vietnam June Ď66 to February Ď68
    MOS: 4641, Combat Photographer

    Memberships:
    Gun Owners of America
    Second Amendment Foundation
    Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Against Crime

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    The Florida Twilight Zone
    Posts
    31,652
    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    @OldVet , the wisdom of the aged shows in your words. We have seen it. Whan a complex system fails the cure is always seen to be making it more complex.
    The military taught me if something simple gets screwed up, making it twice as difficult and taking three times as long is the solution. Nothing wise about that, but it always seems to be the reaction.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array CG11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    NorthWestern Arizona
    Posts
    5,322
    Sometimes you just have to start over - NICS may be there.
    M1911A1, baren, maxwell97 and 1 others like this.
    Be careful of people who brag about who they are - a lion will never have to tell you who he's a lion.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,528
    You guys should see how fast the NCIC database responds. It is now almost instantaneous because of all the laptops in patrol cars. Type in a license plate, DL number, or other means of ID, and within a few seconds a full criminal history pops up - or a clear if there is nothing on record. 99 out of 100 times all the pertinent information is right there.

    I worked on and around government computers (including ultra secure and non-secure) and trust me, the system only works as well as the people hired to do the job. Put idiots in place (like the NICS) system and you get what you pay for. We had a very good saying that identified the problem with computers in four words: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    9,824
    Effectively, this could put those who administer the system in an impossible position. Deny sales to those who should not be denied, and be liable for violating their Constitutional rights; allow sales to those who should be denied, and be liable for any crimes they commit with the guns they buy. The only way to avoid liability is to be perfect, and since the system is run by men and not gods, it can't be.

    That's a problem that's usually covered by sovereign immunity, I believe. Not knowing the details of the case, I imagine there was some especially poor decision made that allows the case to proceed. Most likely it won't have a far-reaching impact on how NICS works day to day, but we'll see.
    "Lots of ways to help people. Sometimes heal patients; sometimes shoot dangerous people. Either way helps."
    - Dr. Mordin Solus

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,528
    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    Effectively, this could put those who administer the system in an impossible position. Deny sales to those who should not be denied, and be liable for violating their Constitutional rights; allow sales to those who should be denied, and be liable for any crimes they commit with the guns they buy. The only way to avoid liability is to be perfect, and since the system is run by men and not gods, it can't be.

    That's a problem that's usually covered by sovereign immunity, I believe. Not knowing the details of the case, I imagine there was some especially poor decision made that allows the case to proceed. Most likely it won't have a far-reaching impact on how NICS works day to day, but we'll see.
    I agree with one exception. During my time working with the Trident D5, I knew that my system had to always be perfect. There are a lot of military systems, (and civilian) where a certain amount of error may be tolerated. Having a missile carrying ten 150kt MIRVs getting confused about which direction leads to the target is not one easily contemplated. We worked to insure they would work first time, every time, to perfection. The solution to that conundrum is simplicity, not complexity.

    In my experience, people who work with such things must understand that lives, potentially millions of lives, may hang in the balance and be lost if laziness is tolerated.
    maxwell97, M1911A1 and msgt/ret like this.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

  13. #12
    VIP Member
    Array spclopr8tr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    SE Tennessee
    Posts
    3,723
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinRohrer View Post
    Ummm, I am sorry, but a properly working NICS system would not have prevented any murder. If the guy hadn't bought his gun, he would have stolen one, bought a stolen one, or bought one privately. Fail.
    I must have missed it. Who said a properly working NICS system would have prevented a murder? The OP didn't say that nor did the linked article.
    AzQkr and OldChap like this.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton

    Patron Life Member NRA
    SAF - CCRKBA
    NAGR / GOA
    TFA-LAC / Save the 2A
    Handgunlaw.us Donor

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Medina, Ohio
    Posts
    751
    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post

    What is known for certain is that in this case the system failed and people died. Say what you want. I just wouldn't say it to the families who lost loved ones.
    No, hopefully what I said is for those who are ruled by reason rather than emotion.
    OldChap likes this.
    Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, American Legion

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array KevinRohrer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Medina, Ohio
    Posts
    751
    Quote Originally Posted by spclopr8tr View Post
    I must have missed it. Who said a properly working NICS system would have prevented a murder? The OP didn't say that nor did the linked article.
    Please re-read the OP's message for understanding. What he said is pretty clear.
    OldChap likes this.
    Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, American Legion

  16. #15
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    In the Superstitions
    Posts
    19,639
    First hand experience with NICS checks for the last 14 years. I know for a fact many prohibited persons were denied, many were felons and lied on the 4473. On a few occasions NICS wanted to know if we could keep that person there long enough for leo's to get there. One two instances, those people were arrested by responders.

    Other times, few, but it did happen, where delayed went past the 3 day delay, were given the gun without resolution from NICS, and 6 months later the feds called wand wanted the 4473 faxed to them so they could go pick them up/
    msgt/ret and OldChap like this.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •