On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society - Page 6

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society

This is a discussion on On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Cypher Two of the better books I've read on Custer were Custer and Crazy Horse by Steven Ambrose and A Terrible Glory ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Two of the better books I've read on Custer were Custer and Crazy Horse by Steven Ambrose and A Terrible Glory by James Donavan. Apparently there's no hard evidence that Custer had any intention of running for President. Donavan speculates that Custer's intent was to get a promotion to Brigadier General.

    Donavan and Ambrose both say that Custer had no reason to expect the Indians to stand and fight because that wasn't what they normally did. Both also mention that it wasn't uncommon for a numerically superior Indian force to be defeated by a better armed Cavalry detachment.
    In this case, the Indians were much better armed than the Cavalry. Many Winchester repeaters versus single shot breech loaders. I'm too lazy at the moment to look up what the specific guns were.
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  2. #77
    Senior Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    In this case, the Indians were much better armed than the Cavalry. Many Winchester repeaters versus single shot breech loaders. I'm too lazy at the moment to look up what the specific guns were.
    But Custer didn't know that until it was too late.

    The point that I was trying to make was it both authors contend that Custer didn't really have any reason to think this time was going to be different

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    The vast majority of doctor Grossman's theories have been thoroughly debunked.

    This is the guy who spent the majority of his career as a psychology professor at West Point. Yes he is Ranger qualified but he never once served in the Ranger regiment. He has never served a day in a combat zone and he's never heard a shot fired in anger
    I'm curious where you get this information about him. This doesn't all seem to square with what I know of him personally.
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  5. #79
    Senior Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    I'm very surprised that no one has posted this yet

    Quote Originally Posted by Two Bears View Post
    Fine then take this forum and shove it up your ASS and remove me from me from membership *******!
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  6. #80
    Senior Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    I'm curious where you get this information about him. This doesn't all seem to square with what I know of him personally.
    https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-...ry-file-35246/

    What I found interesting about that is that a lot of people claim that he never served in a line unit and according to this his military records he did.

    https://www.grossmanacademy.com/about-the-colonel

    Even the mini biography on his own website doesn't claim any combat experience

  7. #81
    Member Array demanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    But Custer didn't know that until it was too late.

    The point that I was trying to make was it both authors contend that Custer didn't really have any reason to think this time was going to be different
    Just another example of the results of poor intel and faulty assumptions.
    Surprise is deadly.

    Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

  8. #82
    Member Array Swedishsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Two of the better books I've read on Custer were Custer and Crazy Horse by Steven Ambrose and A Terrible Glory by James Donavan. Apparently there's no hard evidence that Custer had any intention of running for President. Donavan speculates that Custer's intent was to get a promotion to Brigadier General.

    Donavan and Ambrose both say that Custer had no reason to expect the Indians to stand and fight because that wasn't what they normally did. Both also mention that it wasn't uncommon for a numerically superior Indian force to be defeated by a better armed Cavalry detachment.
    Good points as deduced from well respected historians.

    As you know, tactically, Custer erred by seriously underestimating the number of braves present in the Sioux encampment when he split his command into three columns that were not mutually supportive. He also likely failed to consider that the braves present were accompanied by their wives and children in the camp. They could not retreat without knowing that the "Son of the Morning Star" would slaughter their families as he did along the Washta River 8 years earlier.

    Some critics have also suggested that Benteen and Reno, his subordinates, had old grievances against Custer that may have tempered their aggressiveness when Custer was pinned down on an open prairie and they were marginally safer under modest cover and hasty defenses.

    I realize it is speculative to comment on Custer's intentions to run for President in the 1876 election. There is no direct documentary evidence to support the claim. Instead, the suggestion is more nuanced and based on circumstantial considerations. Libby, his wife who he slavishly adored, even to the extent that he went AWOL to see her and was punished for it, told him not to run for political office. She told him to leave it to the "professionals". After his death she controlled his legacy quite jealousy and squelched any suggestion that he may have been considering defying her. As you have probably noted, there are numerous biographical sources available on Custer that comment on his intentions with varying degrees of certainty.
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  9. #83
    VIP Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    I think I've read all of Col. Grossman's non-fiction works and wouldn't dispute his detractors; early studies are frequently discredited.

    However, regarding his work: Assassination Generation : Video Games, Aggression, and the Psychology of Killing (2016):

    I read it cover to cover and he specifically notes that it is not video games per se that are the problem, but only as a single factor in combination with several other issues like the lack of a moral upbringing, etc. There is a ton of documentation at the end of the book; much more than I expected to see. I will admit I didn't delve further into those citations but I believe his thesis hits upon some valid points.

    He also gets into Classical vs Operant conditioning as they relate to this issue.
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  10. #84
    Member Array Swedishsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I appreciate the unneeded history lesson. I suppose we need a font for hyperbole, along with one for rants and sarcasm.
    It's OK. I still love you, Old Chap. (How's that for hyperbole?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I appreciate the unneeded history lesson. I suppose we need a font for hyperbole, along with one for rants and sarcasm.
    We use blue font for sarcasm and such on one of the sports boards I frequent.

  12. #86
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    Wow, a lot happens in a day away from this place.

    Personally, I find small amounts of deliberate contrarianism to be educational and an asset to any community, as long as the contrarian voice remains calm and rational.

    Well, so much for that.
    Ride hard, shoot straight, always speak the truth

  13. #87
    Senior Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demanic View Post
    Just another example of the results of poor intel and faulty assumptions.
    Surprise is deadly.

    Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk
    I don't know you can say that Custer had poor Intel. Because all of the survivor accounts agree that he was told repeatedly by his Scouts that he was going to run into more Indians than he had ever seen in one place in his life
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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    You are correct sir, this character tripped my spidey senses from day one, I'm sure he's been here before, I just can't place him, yet.
    I'd say, go back a about 3 years, and check on those "EX Member" posts.......Two Bears kinda runs with the Gecko45 type crowd......Can't be ME, cuz I'm still here! LOL...

    BTW, The Language, and the "Legal stuff" he spewed, was kinda like somebody we had that came from CT, or close to that area...... After much banter back and forth, that similar guy exited in a similar manner with similar language....
    I believe it was a heated discussion of him drawing on a truck load of Youths while at a State Liquor Store in his area (CT)
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  15. #89
    VIP Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-...ry-file-35246/

    What I found interesting about that is that a lot of people claim that he never served in a line unit and according to this his military records he did.

    https://www.grossmanacademy.com/about-the-colonel

    Even the mini biography on his own website doesn't claim any combat experience
    His official bio sounds like what I know of him. I was his personal Escort Officer on two separate occasions at Fort Bragg and we had time to share jump stories. [on edit: I also happen to know that he has some pretty significant injuries from a jump accident that he doesn't talk about much, and that may have had a bearing on his post injury assignments]

    About the lack of "Combat time" you keep bringing up: If you served any significant time between the end of Vietnam and 9/11, opportunities for combat tours were slim to almost non-existent. You had to be just the right Grade, just the right MOS and assigned to just the right Unit, all at the same time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    It is every Texans God given right to be rude, crude and socially unacceptable.
    I don't think it's their right so much as their definition.

    Heh, just kidding - only been to Texas once but the folks seemed very pleasant. And cute girls + Texan accent =
    "Lots of ways to help people. Sometimes heal patients; sometimes shoot dangerous people. Either way helps."
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