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Why are so many accepting of the suspension of our Constitutional rights?

19K views 333 replies 56 participants last post by  since9 
#1 ·
And why are so many denigrating those that protest against such suppression? The goal was to prevent hospitals from being overrun. We achieved that goal, but now the goalposts have moved to "defeat the virus."

Which means now that in many states, the lock downs are preventing people from:

1) traveling
2) working
3) freely associating with others
4) attending worship services of their religion
5) purchasing many items

Those are just a few. And many don't even seem alarmed that for some states this may go on indefinitely. "It's to save lives."

Where have we heard that before?

We now have:

Common sense travel controls to save lives.
Common sense employment controls to save lives.
Common sense first amendment control to save lives.
Common sense religion control to save lives.
Common sense purchase controls to save lives.

All for an indefinite period of time. And yet so many seem fine to surrender their liberties for some temporary safety.

It is truly unnerving and disheartening.
 
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#16 ·
I think therein lies the rub. The average American does not have the financial resources to mount a legal fight against the government (I sure don't). And who wants to go to jail while they are mounting that fight, either. That is something that would be on your record for the rest of your life, possibly affecting the ability to get another job, getting loans, etc. Most are not willing to make that sacrifice.

I think the real tragedy is the courts not defending our rights the way they should. Legal battles do occur, but either the courts don't take up those challenges, or all too often they rule against our constitutions.
 
#7 ·
Amen, brother.

I know I'm going to sound heartless, but people die every day. I do recognize that this is a unique situation that calls for unique measures. But, what is the criteria for implementing such measures? What if in a couple years there is a new virus that is only 1/2 as lethal - would it be acceptable to implement the same measures to save lives? What if the new virus is only 1/100th as lethal? The flu kills about 60,000 people a year in the US. If they were to implement a stay-at-home order during every flu season, I'm sure we could reduce that number by several thousand at least.

So, what is the number at which gov't should be "allowed" to put our RIGHTS in a penalty box? There are 30,000 traffic deaths every year. I bet they could cut those in half if they just reduce the speed limit to 20MPH everywhere. I mean, if it save one life it is worth it. Right?

Alon these lines, I just watched this video a few minutes ago.

 
#8 ·
I just watched the Dennis Prager Fireside chat during which he discusses how people are not asking, "What is the cost?" The point being that there is a cost for everything we do, or don't do; consequences either way. He defines it as the question that most defines the difference between adults and juveniles.

I would add that the much ballyhooed "common sense" gets thrown around a lot but few stop to consider what it means. It is typically used to denote some wisdom that is common to the majority. However, I note that the common "sense" of things is frequently (if not mostly) erroneous belief. JMO
 
#11 ·
Far too many of those in "power" are not thinking about the consequences of their acts past next Friday. I, for one, am convinced that this "cure" will ultimately kill more people by economic disenfranchisement than by the virus itself.

Further, I'm concerned that the next "bird flu" or whatever bug comes down the pike will result in the same disastrous government mandates as we're seeing today, based on precedent.
 
#9 ·
This ain't no flu:

https://www.zerohedge.com/health/covid-19-not-flu-all

That said, it's obvious that there are those with an authoritarian bent who seem to enjoy dictating what and where you may buy things. This virus will pass and when it does, it is up to us to ensure that our liberty is restored, at least to the point it was at prior to the contagion.
 
#66 ·
So are you saying the same people who so freely gave in to all the government restrictions of liberty for safety, and then criticized those that didn't agree, are then going to demand those same liberty's be restored. The fact that they so easily gave in to the restrictions imposed by government makes them less likely to demand anything....JMO
 
#10 ·
"Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction." - Ronald Reagan
Those that wish to remake the United States in their own communist image have captured our educational institutions, and the entertainment industries that shape the culture of the next generation (and yes, I count "news" outlets in the "entertainment" category. They certainly aren't NEWS).

This generation of young people have not been taught the value (or COST) of freedom in our public education system. Not only have very few ever had to fight for it, but - relatively speaking - very few have had to face any real adversity of any kind. What comes easy is always underappreciated.

This generation could very well be THAT generation.

Of course, the fiscal calamity that our federal government has had stewing for the last 75 years may very well come home to roost before this generation has made the decision to give ALL their freedom away. At that point, it will be decided for them. I guess with our generation and the one before us, there is plenty of blame to go around, and it's a toss-up who will actually end up being responsible for the end of the American Experiment...
 
#12 ·
Some people here are doing what a lot of people are doing, trying to put people in two different opposing camps on this issue and that is not valid. Video blogger Liberty Doll, who is a staunch libertarian and pro gun person, as a well as a psychological counselor in real life, made an interesting point last week. She said it is possible, in fact likely, that most people fall in the center of the following Venn diagram. I think is is all too easy to park your opinion in just one of these circles and act like to you don't give a darn about the other two. What is hard is seeing this for what it is, a multi-faceted problem. People give lip service to caring about all three, but for most of them, you can tell they are not.

Text Line Diagram Parallel Circle


But you don't have to fall for that and be in only one of the three camps, you can be in all three simultaneously and probably most right thinking people are. It is counterproductive to camp out in just one of the circles and make enemies of everyone in the other two. That does not help. The problem is not just any one of the three circles, it is all three simultaneously and the people who are part of the solution and not the problem have to take all three into account equally.

My thoughts:
Circle 1: The fear of the pandemic is real. I am someone who could very likely actually die from this, no BS. And the solution for me is NOT, "Well you just quarantine yourself and let the rest of us to run around spreading the virus all we want." If someone with active Ebola lived next door to you and was out and about, most people would want something done about it. They all of a sudden wouldn't give a darn about that person's rights. Well that kind of threat is real for me with this and some other people I care about. I also hear some version of "Well you are old, your going to die anyway." That is complete BS and I resent it.

People keep cherry picking information to compare this to the mortality of the flu, auto accidents, heart disease and all kinds of other unrelated killers and the comparisons are apples and oranges. We know about those other causes and how to control them. I personally can do things to prevent dying from those other causes. Nobody knows of an effective way to guard against COVID except by widespread quarantine. Show us a cure, then we will have some control and feel safer. You don't got a cure? Then some of us see the need for caution. The graph below compares some of these causes of death and you can see why they call it a "novel" pandemic. The COVID line is going straight up, not like those other causes of death.

Text Line Blue Yellow Parallel


Circle 2: I am very concerned about the expansion of government authoritarian policies and intrusion into our rights. My concern for #1 does not overshadow that. But then I was very concerned and very active about that even before the virus. We have allowed the government to be taken over by people who don't respect the Constitution and we have let that happen over a long period of time. The kind of violations of rights we are seeing with this pandemic are very predictable given that situation. We didn't get in this situation overnight and we won't get out of it overnight. A lot of the people who are complaining about it now are not the kind of people I see on the front lines when I am on the streets campaigning for political candidates and for gun rights. They are people who are whining about being inconvenienced. And what would these people have us do? Violate the quarantines and then shoot it out with cops who try to enforce it? Get real. We don't have the organization required for a revolution. And if you get in a fight you can't win, you only further the enemy's cause.

Circle 3: I am also very concerned about the economy. My retirement savings have been hit hard. I can barely stomach looking at them. And I know the longer this goes on, the longer it will be before they recover. But this has been going on for a couple of months. It sill hasn't hit me nearly as hard as the 2008 recession did. And I don't think it will, when all is said and done. People like to talk about prepping with food, guns, ammo, etc. But what I learned from 2008 is financial prepping. I was nearly bankrupt in 2010. Now ten years later I have no unsecured debt and strong emergency funds. Everyone should. And I am optimistic about the economy. I think once this quarantine is lifted, the economy will get off to slow start at first, but then really take off again.

But here's the big thing that affects all three circles: We need to pull together and get the November election to go right. If we don't all three of those circles will turn black.
 
#56 ·
My thoughts:
Circle 1: The fear of the pandemic is real. I am someone who could very likely actually die from this, no BS. And the solution for me is NOT, "Well you just quarantine yourself and let the rest of us to run around spreading the virus all we want." If someone with active Ebola lived next door to you and was out and about, most people would want something done about it. They all of a sudden wouldn't give a darn about that person's rights. Well that kind of threat is real for me with this and some other people I care about. I also hear some version of "Well you are old, your going to die anyway." That is complete BS and I resent it.

People keep cherry picking information to compare this to the mortality of the flu, auto accidents, heart disease and all kinds of other unrelated killers and the comparisons are apples and oranges. We know about those other causes and how to control them. I personally can do things to prevent dying from those other causes. Nobody knows of an effective way to guard against COVID except by widespread quarantine. Show us a cure, then we will have some control and feel safer. You don't got a cure? Then some of us see the need for caution. The graph below compares some of these causes of death and you can see why they call it a "novel" pandemic. The COVID line is going straight up, not like those other causes of death.
The flu is a contagious disease just live Covid-19 - it is just less lethal. So, there are no differences in how to control them. But, the government doesn't go to drastic lengths to control the flu because the number of deaths from the flu are "acceptable"? Plus, we can add in the assumption that Covid-19 would strain our healthcare system to its limits if left unchecked. I found one projection that we would have had 350K deaths without the restrictions, so let's assume there is a spectrum for any new diseases


60,000----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----350,000
No restrictions needed ....................................... Stay at Home Orders


Let's make the assumption that all the current government restrictions are acceptable based on 350K projected deaths. Then the question is, where on that spectrum does that become true? What if it only had a projection of 300K or 200K, or even as little as 100K.

I'm in total agreement with you about the three positions in that Venn diagram. However, I will say I see many that only seem to be in the "taking it seriously camp". I had one person post on FB a tweet from Biden saying to the effect "Not one life is worth losing to add one point to the DOW" and saying that he's the type of guy he wants to vote for. It's blatant pandering and people are eating it up. There are people that die all the time that could be saved through extraordinary means. Should we spend tens of millions of tax payer dollars to attempt to save each one? It would send our country into ruin - but if it saved just one life, right?

So, yes, I agree that this requires a nuanced approach. I appreciate those protesting for one specific reason. When our government restricts our rights (even if it is for the right reasons) - there needs to be pushback. Otherwise, people will become accepting of those types of restrictions and government will become emboldened to enact the same restrictions for less serious problems. It will be interesting to see what the legal fallout is over this when it is all said and done. I recall after Katrina, there were lawsuits over the authorities confiscating weapons. I expect the same thing here.
 
#14 ·
I see all sorts of charts showing how bad the wuhan flu is, and I see many reports of deaths being erroneously attributed to the wuhan flu. The wuhan flu, is a virus in the covid family. That's all it is, another flu virus strain. Some are more serious than others, but none have had an impact like the Spanish flu did when it initially hit.

People are not dying in numbers that are horrific. Not by a long shot. @Psycho41 isn't heartless at all. It's taking a realistic approach to the situation, and not panicking. Outside of the smog filled densely packed cities the number of people having the need for medical care is almost non-existent. As an asthma sufferer, I can attest to what even a short period of time in smog filled area does to me. It's ugly and miserable. It's quite honestly the primary reason that I will never work in a large city. I thank my brother for living in Phoenix AZ and having spent Christmas down there to find out firsthand.

The real harm done isn't the few who have died from the virus, but from the millions FORCED into unemployment, the EXTRA TAXES being added on because of the erroneous actions taken. The price being forced onto the American people does not come close to the actual cost in dealing with the virus itself.

We have people not getting "elective" surgeries. Elective includes a lot of life saving surgeries that are needed. They include joint replacements, cancer treatments, and other routine preventative surgeries. How many people are have died, or will die, because they cannot have their chemo treatments, or cannot have what is categorized as "elective surgery" to have tumors removed? I have co-workers and family members who are nurses. They are working reduced hours because the "pandemic" is so bad virtually no one needs hospitalization, and they are being forced to NOT do the elective procedures. At this rate, some of the healthcare staff are going to be laid off... How stupid is that?
 
#60 ·
We have people not getting "elective" surgeries. Elective includes a lot of life saving surgeries that are needed. They include joint replacements, cancer treatments, and other routine preventative surgeries. How many people are have died, or will die, because they cannot have their chemo treatments, or cannot have what is categorized as "elective surgery" to have tumors removed? I have co-workers and family members who are nurses. They are working reduced hours because the "pandemic" is so bad virtually no one needs hospitalization, and they are being forced to NOT do the elective procedures. At this rate, some of the healthcare staff are going to be laid off... How stupid is that?
On my own home front: My one granddaughter worked incredibly long and hard to get into Physician Assistant graduate school. She recently graduated first in her class, with about every honor they give. She got such high grades because she personally wants to make sure she knows "inside and out" everything that is available for her to know so she doesn't make mistakes when treating her patients. She will be an excellent PA.

The problem: Now that she is ready for a real job (as soon as she receives the results of her national certification test) - there might not be any jobs open! Her preference is to work in a hospital emergency room, and that seems to be about the only part of hospitals that is functioning. Some hospitals are close to closing completely for lack of business/work. And the irony is that the health care professions have been recommended highly for a long time as paying decent wages and being recession proof - because everybody needs medical care, right?

Does grandma sound a bit upset? That's because she is.
 
#17 ·
So far, during state mandated Covid "quarantine" I have purchased a new Dodge Ram from my local dealer, been to the grocery store regularly, gone to Lowes multiple times for home repair issues, picked up my favorite restaurant food, bought clothes at a local retail establishment, picked up some misc things at CVS, bought horse feed at my local Tractor Supply, made and appointment to see my Dr and went into the office, spoke with the nice ladies across the counter, waited in the waiting room as normal, went in to see him and left with what I came for just like normal. Those that are on unemployment are getting a minimum of $2400/mo plus whatever their state normally provides, which for many is more than they normally make.

I am all about civil liberties and fed up with the over-reach of the government, but I don't feel too constrained. If you turn your TV off, life seems pretty normal. If you are out of work, I hope you are taking advantage of the stimulus money. Hopefully the four months added benefits will be enough to get you across the bridge.

Only enough time passing, and much more data collected, will allow us to see this through an objective filter of a rear view mirror. For now, it is what it is. Turning the TV off and stopping listening to whatever your favorite media opinion pusher, is a great way to ride this out with limited angst or frustration. I can pretty much do whatever I was doing. I stopped listening to talking heads tell me I couldn't or shouldn't.
 
#19 ·
....I can pretty much do whatever I was doing....
Then you are very fortunate. Unfortunately, that is not the reality of millions of Americans, myself included. Our son can't go to school. He is a special needs boy that was thriving in school. But now he is stuck at home, and my wife was sent home from her job with a laptop to work at home. However, it is difficult to get enough babysitting because the demand for babysitters is so high with all the kids at home. So my wife is very stressed out from trying to get her work done and provide part-time care for our son as well. Kids need to get back to school.

And for the tens of millions of Americans who have already lost their jobs, and the many millions more who will lose their jobs in the coming weeks and months, this isn't life as usual. My wife and I are both still working for now, but if the new home sales market keeps declining in the next several months, we may be in that group looking for another job, as well.

I suspect the vast majority of Americans are not as fortunate as you.
 
#20 ·
Betcha I catch hell for this... Betcha I don't care.....

I am tired of hearing folks tell me that if I cared about them not getting the virus I'd protect them by wearing a mask. Better yet in order to protect them I should stay home.

If YOU don't want to take a chance getting the virus how about YOU wear a mask or YOU stay home. Voluntarily restrict your own freedom/rights instead of demanding, and expecting the government to enforce, my freedom/rights be restricted.

But kindly do not act all noble while blaming me for you getting sick.

Rant over!
 
#23 ·
'...why are so many denigrating those that protest against such suppression? The goal was to prevent Japan from attacking the US. We achieved that goal, but now the goalposts have moved to "defeat the Nazis."

Which means now conscription and rationing are preventing people from:

1) traveling
2) working
3) freely associating with others
4) attending worship services of their religion
5) purchasing many items

Those are just a few. And many don't even seem alarmed that this may go on indefinitely.'
 
#29 ·
'...why are so many denigrating those that protest against such suppression? The goal was to prevent Japan from attacking the US. We achieved that goal, but now the goalposts have moved to "defeat the Nazis."

Which means now conscription and rationing are preventing people from:

1) traveling
2) working
3) freely associating with others
4) attending worship services of their religion
5) purchasing many items

Those are just a few. And many don't even seem alarmed that this may go on indefinitely.'
Nope. These were two different threats. A better comparison would be going into Iraq to find WMD’s, then finding Saddam and cheering “mission accomplished” despite never finding the WMD’s(that we went there for) and basing the entire invasion on bad intel, then leaving the country in worse shape afterward.
 
#26 ·
Most people have been properly indoctrinated and only know what they have been told to think. They paid no attention to history, they have no concept of looking at the future, and they know very little about what’s going on now.
 
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#28 ·
There are members here who normally speak out against rights infringement, but who are now some of those who believe this virus is going to take us all out and who are advocating continued closures which lead to economic ruin. I’d like to hear from them what in their psyche changed in two months that wasn’t there before. Those people scare me more than the liberals - at least I’m expecting it from Libs.
 
#31 ·
Restaurants closed, bars closed, nearly all beaches and parks closed, barber shops and salons closed, for the love of God - Disneyworld is closed! It's the end of the Florida world as we know it. (ITEOTFWAWKI?)

People are "forced" out of work due to government mandates. FL can't get its unemployment system to work and people can't file. Public property--that which is owned by The People--is closed to The People. The country's sorry education system is shut down at every level--again by government mandate.

Who wouldn't protest such dictatorial control over our everyday life and being?
 
#42 ·
Given the frustration that people are experiencing, and the rising number of people that are becoming agitated, would any of you that support the shutdown also support surrendering your firearms until we have "defeated the virus?"

The rationale is that given the unrest, the likelihood of the use of a firearm in an offensive manner has increased, and thus the temporary surrender will save lives.
 
#46 ·
Given the frustration that people are experiencing, and the rising number of people that are becoming agitated, would any of you that support the shutdown also support surrendering your firearms until we have "defeated the virus?"

The rationale is that given the unrest, the likelihood of the use of a firearm in an offensive manner has increased, and thus the temporary surrender will save lives.
That is at least as good as anything the grabbers have come up with until now.
 
#51 ·
Perhaps Americans are not as accepting but don’t know how to resist and resolve the infringements. Not speaking of force but using a continuum based on the nature, scope, and frequency of that infringement. Actions might include phone calls, letters, protests. All peaceful actions. Recall petitions and just show up and vote for heaven’s sake.

The continuum might include tar and feathers for more extreme infringements such as current events.

Basically people don’t know how to go about it.
 
#52 ·
@PEF: I was only saying what I said. You said people in the gig economy are screwed. I was just pointing out that is an over-generalization. I was not implying there are not people in trouble.

And in fact, it is not anecdotal. Other people who do what I do are having the same experience. I work on the IT industry, but I am not a technical guy. From what I see out there, if I were a technical guy, I would have recruiters camped on my front lawn. That is not an anecdote. That is a trend. I admit it is only a trend in one part of the job market, but it involves many thousands of people. There are skills, that if you have them, you can work.

That does not diminish my sympathy for people who are not in that position in any way. I was just stating a fact.
 
#54 ·
To me, it seemed that those in the public sphere were telling us that we're all gonna DIE! (Oh, the humanity!) Right after that, our rights and privileges were, and still are, severely abused all in the name of protecting us. As it is turning out, it doesn't seem to be a good idea when certain people are in positions of authority who turn that authority into power. Authority is given, power is taken. Democrats know all about it and see that process as a desirable feature, not as a failure to govern in America.

The Wuhan Virus thing may not be "merely" the flu, but it's not been shown to be the viral equivalent of sarin gas either. As I see it, an American government's genuine role at all levels is not to dictate to us. Democrats, of course, see that as silly notion. They don't want a true king to be installed, but they do want a supremely strong central government to act precisely as one. A Medieval-styled one. Look at those who "know" that they are our superiors crushing our Liberty. How many of them are not Democrat? How many see themselves as nobles and us as dependent serfs?

The hysterical actions by Democrats, their foreign supporters, and their running dog media elites are unwarranted in my opinion. They are using this ginned-up overreaction as their Reichstag Fire moment to serve as an excuse to abuse the power they've usurped. I think the virus is very real. I think a lot of people are at risk of dying from it; myself and particularly my wife. Losing loved ones as a result of any reason is painful. Grief is hard and I've had my share. I do think though, that this crisis is as manufactured as William Randolph Hearst's whipping up a frenzy with his yellow journalism to help start the Spanish American War. Since the entire story, the cause and effects, regarding the Wu Flu fluctuates hourly, I'd rather be free and manage my own risks. Managing risk would be simpler if an American had access to legitimate reportage.
 
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