Hero shot by cops after disarming hostage taker - Page 6

Hero shot by cops after disarming hostage taker

This is a discussion on Hero shot by cops after disarming hostage taker within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; It's a tough job. That's for sure. Like I've said before, in some areas, people seem to intentionally try to provoke police officers. (maybe if ...

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Thread: Hero shot by cops after disarming hostage taker

  1. #76
    DG
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    It's a tough job. That's for sure. Like I've said before, in some areas, people seem to intentionally try to provoke police officers. (maybe if I can get the officer to do something illegal, I can win the lawsuit lottery) Whatever you do, chances are someone has it on video in addition to the body cams and cameras in the cruisers. Most officers I know just want to do the best job they can and get home safely to their families.
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  2. #77
    Member Array Mjolnir's Avatar
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    I think it silly to assume they are your "friends". They are neighbors, however.

    Some are friendly. Some are not.

    Some know the laws; MOST do not - most citizens do not, either.

    To whom much is given much is expected.

    I am expected to expose any cardinal rule violations where I work. Or I'm canned.

    If these bad apples are not removed then is it the responsibility of his/her fellow officers or the public to insure that he/she is removed? I mean, you should ALSO know who is a good police officer and who most certainly is not.

    I'm not at liberty to speak freely about who does what and what I know but anyone who insinuates (and no one here directly has done so) that cops are "the good guys" is full of it. People are people. They are individuals. And some are good and some are absolutely horrid.

    When I see videos of cops abusing people I never see another police officer come over and STOP the offending officer. They sit and watch. You can sometimes see from their facial expressions and body language that they do not agree.

    I don't consider that "a good cop". If my friend and I are at lunch and he goes off on someone unnecessarily I IMMEDIATELY let it be known he's acting an ass. It's the PROPER thing to do. If he's about to assault someone (I'd not be with anyone who initiates violence) I stop him. I also intervene if someone is being bullied.

    But that's me. That's MY moral compass. Everyone is unique and I don't expect everyone to see things as I do.


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  3. #78
    Senior Member Array Gunnie's Avatar
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    I can't speak for every cop in the country can't speak for everyone in the state however I can say the ones I've worked with have been the good guys. They truly do care about the community and the others in it. They truly do respect and care about the constitution they swore to uphold. I also know that just like all human beings there are bad apples just like there are people that have bad days that do things they wouldn't normally do or react in ways that aren't how they normally would.

    As far as stepping in and getting the bad ones out. I've worked in other sectors and I know just like other jobs in Law enforcement sometimes at the end of the day the people in charge won't necessarily remove people that need it. How many have worked with someone who violated the rules and still had a job? I'd bet everyone here not only that sometimes there's more then what's at the surface it's a process like anyplace else gone are the days when the boss walked on the plant floor and said your fired turn in your stuff. This is both a good thing for those that do there job and are hated because of politics and it's a bad thing for those that should be canned immediately
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  5. #79
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    @Mjolnir ....Iím going to end my discussion with you. Youíre dancing on the head of a pin. I suggest at a minimum you go read the forum rules. Pay particular attention to rule 9a.

    This forum is about law abiding citizens who legally carry guns under license. This threadís discussion is not about bashing cops, it is about what we can learn about surviving an armed encounter with officers. Just a friendly tip.

  6. #80
    Member Array Mjolnir's Avatar
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    I have a ton of LE friends; most are hard core Constitutionalists, too. They are superb. I have LE in my family. I'm not impressed with all of them and a few should not have firearms - nor should their friends (not my friends).

    I'm aware of the damned good ones, the good ones and I'm also aware of the ones that cost me money, you reputation and for some blood, money and jail time.

    I once thought it was a Big City thing. Nope. Met two rural ones who I would not spit on if they were on fire. Literally. I wasn't the only ones who felt that way, either. Whether his co-workers felt he was okay is something I do not know.

    Do I think the latter are common? Yeah. It's like any other profession.

    Are they the majority?

    I would say no. Just like any other profession.


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  7. #81
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    Take any group in American and you will have a cross section of America. Every group will have a few bad apples. Some more or less than others.
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  8. #82
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulinsf View Post
    An Amarillo, Texas student was shot and wounded by police shortly after he heroically jumped in and helped disarm a gunman who was holding some 100 people hostage in the chapel of the Faith City Mission, which serves the needy in the Amarillo area.

    According to news reports the student had wrestled the gun away as other people tackled the gunman. Police, responding to the call saw that student holding the gun and fired, hitting him.

    This is not an indictment of the police officer who shot the student. Responding officers have milliseconds to sort through what they are seeing when they arrive on this sort of scene. The police had no idea that the dynamics of the situation had changed in the seconds prior to their arrival. As far as they knew a large crowd was still being held by a gunman.

    What this does show us is the the very real danger of having a gun in our hand when the police arrive. We might know that we are the good guys, but the cops don't. That isn't something that comes naturally to those of us who make a habit of walking on the lawful side of the line. Bad guys generally know not to look like an armed threat to a police officer. We good guys need to be aware of just how threatening we can look in a similar situation.

    Ditch the gun as soon as you can. you don't know when the cops might come charging in. You don't want to have it in your hand when they do.

    APD shoots Faith City Mission student who?d taken gun away from hostage-taker in facility?s chapel | amarillo.com
    Actually the officers certainly should be indicted. The good guy here did not threaten them with the weapon.

    If an LTC holder had shot him under the same exact conditions he would be on his/her way to prison.

    I'm as pro LE as a guy can be but there is something very wrong when cops are not even held to the same minimum standards that the average citizen is.
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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    Actually the officers certainly should be indicted. The good guy here did not threaten them with the weapon.

    If an LTC holder had shot him under the same exact conditions he would be on his/her way to prison.

    I'm as pro LE as a guy can be but there is something very wrong when cops are not even held to the same minimum standards that the average citizen is.
    Youre probably right but we still donít know what happened.
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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Youre probably right but we still donít know what happened.
    I'm absolutely sure he didn't threaten the cops with the gun and equally sure they should be held every bit accountable as any other citizen for the wrongful shooting.

    I can guarantee you the PD is already trying to figure out how to settle the upcoming civil suit before it can ever get into court.

    I spoke with some friends who were in attendance who said basically the stormed the sanctuary and immediately shot him without assessing the situation or trying to get him to surrender the weapon.

    I've evaluated literally thousands of shootings involving both LEO's and Civilians and this was wrongful on every possible level.
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  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    I'm absolutely sure he didn't threaten the cops with the gun and equally sure they should be held every bit accountable as any other citizen for the wrongful shooting.

    I can guarantee you the PD is already trying to figure out how to settle the upcoming civil suit before it can ever get into court.

    I spoke with some friends who were in attendance who said basically the stormed the sanctuary and immediately shot him without assessing the situation or trying to get him to surrender the weapon.

    I've evaluated literally thousands of shootings involving both LEO's and Civilians and this was wrongful on every possible level.
    If that is true then I agree.
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  12. #86
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    If that is true then I agree.
    Trust me, I have taken the very unpopular position of defending the police in some of the most high profile shootings in the country over the last decade to the point of serious threats being made against myself and family because under the law they were absolutely justified in their actions.

    This is not one of those cases.
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  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    I'm absolutely sure he didn't threaten the cops with the gun and equally sure they should be held every bit accountable as any other citizen for the wrongful shooting.

    I can guarantee you the PD is already trying to figure out how to settle the upcoming civil suit before it can ever get into court.

    I spoke with some friends who were in attendance who said basically the stormed the sanctuary and immediately shot him without assessing the situation or trying to get him to surrender the weapon.

    I've evaluated literally thousands of shootings involving both LEO's and Civilians and this was wrongful on every possible level.
    Can you tell me which section of the Texas Penal Code says that the individual officer's life must be threatened for them to use deadly force? I see no distinction in 9.32 or 9.33 regarding an actors occupation. Can you tell us specifically where the "hero" was pointing the weapon when the officer shot him? Was it in a safe direction or at another person?

    How far were you from each party when the officer discharged his weapon?
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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Can you tell me which section of the Texas Penal Code says that the individual officer's life must be threatened for them to use deadly force? I see no distinction in 9.32 or 9.33 regarding an actors occupation. Can you tell us specifically where the "hero" was pointing the weapon when the officer shot him? Was it in a safe direction or at another person?

    How far were you from each party when the officer discharged his weapon?
    An officer may only use deadly force when there is the threat of immediate unlawful deadly force, or in the case of an armed fleeing violent felon or escapee from custody, to prevent escape from custody, or when it is necessary to effect an arrest. See section 9-21.

    PENAL CODE CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

    The gun was pointed at the ground and they burst into the sanctuary and shot him immediately from what the witnesses told me.

    I'll have to see more from the shooting report but they are going to have an awfully hard time justifying his being shot. So far the APD isn't saying much.

  15. #89
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeflonDon View Post
    I think non LEOs typically call L.E., flee, or at the very least, don't shoot first, ask questions later. What would be a bad shoot for us is deemed a good shoot for L.E. in many cases. Tamir Rice and John Crawford (the guy who was shot in WalMart holding a toy gun Walmart sold) immediately come to mind. The gun doesn't even have to be pointed at anyone, as it wasn't in both of the aforementioned cases, and you can simply be shot and killed for merely holding it in your hand.
    That isn't true.

    In the Tamir Rice case the officer was within ten feet of him and Rice was attempting to draw the weapon.

    In the case of John Crawford, it had been reported to them that Crawford was threatening customers in the store with a weapon and as they approached him he was swinging it back and forth. The officers successfully convinced the GJ that prior to the first shot he was swinging it towards the officer and prior to the subsequent shots he appeared to be trying to reach for it after having dropped it and he was being commanded not to move.

    Under the law because of the deadly threat reasonably percieved by the officers the shootings were legally justifiable.

    I could write volumes though on what was done wrong in both cases and how the shootings reasonably could have been avoided.

    Under the law shooting doesn't have to be the right choice, or the only choice to be justifiable and the police always get the benefit of the doubt.

    In the first case the dispatcher and driver were responsible for the conditions that led to Tamir's shooting.

    In the second, the 9-11 caller that was still on the line as they approached was responsible for grossly exaggerating what he was doing with what proved to be an airsoft gun rather than a real gun.

    In Rice's case they had absolutely no way to determine it was a toy and because of the driver crashing in right on top of him the officer who fired was really left with no choice.

    In both cases the dispatchers had information from callers that the guns were not real but the dispatchers failed to relay that message to the officers.

    In the Rice case, the dispatcher had also been told by one caller that she thought it was just a kid playing with a toy gun and she failed to inform them of that as well.

  16. #90
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    After the Pulse Club shooting, advice seems to have changed from hide an barricade to fight. Hiding is what got so many people killed at Pulse, only one armed off duty LE was there on security detail and he missed. In the Florida shooting there was the JROTC student who was prepared to fight back if the shooter got into the room. This shoot first, ask questions later is at the very least counter to the new advice. At worst it is a gross violation of the purpose of the police, to protect and serve, and will eventually get the first nonuniformed LE responder killed.

    In the original post, that hero stopped more people from being shot. So what are we to do, just let people get killed? Just save our own skins? Tough choice.
    When seconds count, help is only 18+ minutes away!

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