Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant - Page 11

Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant

This is a discussion on Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by 1942bull If my post about the gun lead anyone to believe that I say it as justification for the officer's action. please ...

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Thread: Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant

  1. #151
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    If my post about the gun lead anyone to believe that I say it as justification for the officer's action. please know that I think he was wrong in the way he approached the tasks and then engaged the victim.

    That said, The new revelation hints at a reasonable doubt defense. I can hear the lawyer in arguments: "he saw the gun and he feared for his life."

    I am not so convinced he will be convicted.
    Fear is the mind killer.
    - Frank Herbert

    Reasonable decisions are better left to folks with at least a Boy Scout level notion of bravery. My boss is afraid of her own shadow. I have seen her shadow and it sends chills down my spine.

    This poor cop is toast. A scared stray cat who can't tell a welfare check from drug bust from a Halloween movie.
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  2. #152
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    You never consider another reason? He's having a hard time dealing with killing another person and knows that profession is not for him? Suffering remorse over it? You're sure he did it to benefit himself? Wow, that's a clear sign of subjective thinking and based on past posts where leo's are discussed, there's just no other reason for your statement, you're sure he did it to benefit himself.

    greydude,

    Walking past the door and their whispering leads me to believe they didn't want to announce their presence to anyone inside. If a few bangers had residents in the back bedroom, and a slew of other potentials why one may not want to announce. Also, where two were whispering, I'd have to think both agreed, possibly without even verbalizing it, that was the best course of action at that time. That's two leo's where the facts support mutual cooperation and not a lone wolf/rogue leo.

    That doesn't automatically exonerate him for what happened, but it does suggest both leo's felt it prudent to not announce at that time [ and I'd guess they wanted more intel before moving to the fatal funnel and announcing ]. More intel would explain peeking and shining lights in the windows.
    Yes I considered it.
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  3. #153
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    greydude,

    Walking past the door and their whispering leads me to believe they didn't want to announce their presence to anyone inside. If a few bangers had residents in the back bedroom, and a slew of other potentials why one may not want to announce. Also, where two were whispering, I'd have to think both agreed, possibly without even verbalizing it, that was the best course of action at that time. That's two leo's where the facts support mutual cooperation and not a lone wolf/rogue leo.

    That doesn't automatically exonerate him for what happened, but it does suggest both leo's felt it prudent to not announce at that time [ and I'd guess they wanted more intel before moving to the fatal funnel and announcing ]. More intel would explain peeking and shining lights in the windows.
    I agree, the actions of the officers indicate they didn't want to announce their presence. As @airslot pointed out, initial reports of this being dispatched as a welfare check were incorrect. The officers were apparently dispatched for an open building and possible burglary underway. Those quiet intel gathering actions are consistent with that type of call. My error in this was assuming the officers were directed to do a welfare check; I should know better than to assume key facts like that in initial reports are accurate.

    The teamwork and type of call are consistent and don't paint the cop who shot as a rogue rookie; their actions leading up to the shooting are things we should expect to see of any officers in this kind of dispatch.

    His actions upon seeing an armed woman through the window are now the crux of the problem. Was it reasonable in the moment to conclude the woman holding a gun was an immediate threat that required a shooting solution, or could he have identified himself, directed her to lower the weapon, and gave her time to comply? Could he have taken cover rather than shooting, and then communicated to determine if she was friend or foe? Not having been there and relying on poor quality body cam video makes it hard to answer these questions.

    From this, how can departments better instruct LEOs on how to better ID threats? Not everyone who holds a gun is a threat, and cops need to get away from the default shoot first ask questions later mindset when it comes to someone holding a gun.
    Mike1956, Nix, AzQkr and 2 others like this.
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  5. #154
    Senior Member Array FAS1's Avatar
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    Fort Worth officer who shot Atatiana Jefferson wasn’t actually asked to do a wellness check
    Certainly would make a difference in the mindset of the responding officers.

    But the mindset of a police officer changes when they hear it’s an “open structure” or “open door” call.

    Michael “Britt” London, president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, said officers have a more cautious approach and run through multiple scenarios in their heads. They could be presented with a simple case of a door left unlocked, an abandoned home, or a burglary in progress.

    “You are at a higher sensitivity to what is going on with that house,” London said. “You have to be ready for anything. You are taking more of your environment in consideration to be ready for a surprise if there’s one.”
    https://fox59.com/2019/10/17/fort-wo...ellness-check/

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    - if a leo reasonably feels the need to use force, then the law allows it

    I'd like to hear one of LEOs to comment on that (unless you are one), since that seems like a very poor definition.

    Leo use of force continuum:

    Presence
    Verbalization
    mace/tazer
    firearm

    When I was on it was

    Presence
    verbalization
    mace/stick
    firearm
    The continuum of force is different in every situation. As well as it's not applicable in every situation. In cased where deadly force must be used, an officer will go directly to deadly force.

  7. #156
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    murder and it's definitions are different in every state. Im not familiar with Texas. But the law must meet constitutional standards everywhere...

    I dont believe that there is any question that the officer was reckless.
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  8. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by airslot View Post
    This is where the blue wall needs to do a hard gut check. This is bad optics, no matter how the details play out. "Blue lives matter"? What about innocent, law abiding citizens lives matter?

    Rather than running a justification opinion, what about condolences and helping the public to help police? Tell the public how communication could have been better. Tell what the first responder team learned that they need to do better. Justifying shooting this innocent woman in her home isn't winning police any friends.
    Havok, TSKnight and CWOUSCG like this.
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