Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant - Page 5

Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant

This is a discussion on Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by rotorhead1026 Yes it does. If it was locked away, she wasnít holding it when she was shot, which makes a bad shoot ...

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Thread: Another LEO shoots homeowner/occupant

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead1026 View Post
    Yes it does. If it was locked away, she wasnít holding it when she was shot, which makes a bad shoot even worse.
    If she was holding a gun, it still doesnít make her in the wrong. Itís her property. She can be doing that. Especially when there is someone suspicious walking around the property looking in windows.
    We get the government we deserve.

  2. #62
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlights View Post
    - my point was it doesnt matter if the cop saw her with a gun or not
    - door open, no response, 'let me see your hands!', and thinks the silouette is pointing a weapon at him
    - not saying he was correct... obviously not
    - but under TX law all he needs to do is articulate how under those circumstances he reasonably feared that a burglar was inside and about to shoot him or pull a weapon and shoot him

    - gets a call for door open (supicious circumstances), comes to call sees door is indeed open, nobody answers his calls, someone inside looks like they are going for a weapon...

    - that's all reasonable for a LEO under these circumstances

    - IF the front door wasn't opened/ajar it woul be unreasonable to just shoot at sillouetess through windows... but I think the tragedy here will be legally justified
    Where are you getting your details from?

    In the short video I watched the screen/glass storm doors were closed even if the inner wood doors were open. Saying the door was open is not exactly the case.

    I also didnít see any effort to knock or speak to anyone inside. While walking around the cops were whispering. The cops didnít communicate to people inside, from what I could tell, until opening the gate and seeing someone through a closed window.
    OldVet and Psycho41 like this.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Array KILTED COWBOY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Seems LE 101 also has been suffered dumbing down like most educational classes.
    My dad saw this dumbing down and lowering of requirements way back in 1980 when he retired.
    And now I believe LEO's are on a hair trigger, believing it's open season on cops.
    Something must change soon. Better training, higher standards to be a cop.
    And foremost better understanding of the citizens in the "communities" they patrol.
    If they supported the cops and not try to crucify them it would go a long way to cut the tension.
    Hard to do your job when no matter what you do you are judged to be wrong, and racist by the people you are trying to protect.
    OldVet and MMinSC like this.

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  5. #64
    Member Array gnius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlights View Post
    - LEGALLY the LEO in this can can argue that he reasonably feared for his life
    - he is LEO, the rules are different
    Legally, anyone can argue anything.
    I'd like to hear an explanation how the guidelines for use of deadly force are different for the police, except for the right to use force for chase and apprehension.
    As far as I know - while anyone can argue that their actions were reasonable, they actually have to BE reasonable to be valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by starlights View Post
    - if a leo reasonably feels the need to use force, then the law allows it
    I'd like to hear one of LEOs to comment on that (unless you are one), since that seems like a very poor definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by starlights View Post
    - but there will be no charges
    - or they will do the whole political first degree murder charge knowing that they overcharged him to guarantee a future aquittal
    By the way - the whole - let's overcharge so they get acquitted is a nasty tactic and at some point when people decide to hang the people who do it on streetlights as a warning to others, I'm going to say "I told you so".

    The police are not magical guiltless fairy creatures who have more rights than everyone else - they have a very difficult and often nasty job, which they CHOOSE to do, and I respect them for it. But their only "extra rights" should be the privilege to chase, apprehend, and detain. They don't have a license to kill civilians whenever they FEEL like it. I think most LEOs would agree with me.
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  6. #65
    Senior Member Array KILTED COWBOY's Avatar
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    Sorry cops do not wake up in the morning and think. I'm gonna kill me someone today.
    Cops do not kill people whenever they FEEL like it.
    They shoot when they FEEL their life is in danger, just like any one of us would do.
    If the cops didn't think that there was a target on their back, literally and figuratively, the tension level would go way down and so would these bad outcomes.
    Cities are trying to fill empty squad cars, Dallas is down over 800 officers.
    High caliber people are seeking employment elsewhere. There are cops out on the street that 50-60 years ago never would have made on to the force.
    The community, social justice agitators also are culpable and have blood on their hands
    rotorhead1026 likes this.

  7. #66
    Member Array rotorhead1026's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    If she was holding a gun, it still doesnít make her in the wrong. Itís her property. She can be doing that. Especially when there is someone suspicious walking around the property looking in windows.
    (Sigh) Iím not saying sheís in the wrong.
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  8. #67
    Member Array gnius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    Sorry cops do not wake up in the morning and think. I'm gonna kill me someone today.
    Cops do not kill people whenever they FEEL like it.
    They shoot when they FEEL their life is in danger, just like any one of us would do.
    I'm not saying they do, I agree with you.
    If I shoot someone because I FEEL they are a danger, but I am wrong, I'll be prosecuted. The police are subject to the same rules.
    That's the risk you take when you pull the trigger.
    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    If the cops didn't think that there was a target on their back, literally and figuratively, the tension level would go way down and so would these bad outcomes.
    Let's not use emotion and feelings instead of facts like the anti-gun media do. Deadly assaults on police officers have been downtrending for decades. Now, the community relations are AWFUL, partly because of media and faux outrage, partly because of pandering by the left, and partly because of the pervasive belief within the force, that the police play by different rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    Cities are trying to fill empty squad cars, Dallas is down over 800 officers.
    High caliber people are seeking employment elsewhere. There are cops out on the street that 50-60 years ago never would have made on to the force.
    The community, social justice agitators also are culpable and have blood on their hands
    Agreed with all of the above. The police are undertrained, underpaid, and overworked. A revision of priorities is certainly in order.
    I hope I'm being clear - I am quite pro- law-enforcement personnel. I'm more supportive of them than their bosses I think. I'd rather pay more taxes and have better and happier cops. But I cannot help but think that the current environment has let the police to feel like they are apart from the rest of the population, and this has very unfortunate consequences.

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array lionround's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlights View Post
    -
    - he responded to a call.. door open... no answer to his calls...
    I saw this on a number of posts. I don't understand what you mean by "no answer to his calls". As far as I can tell from the video, there were no calls. The first communication of any type to the homeowner was "Show me your hands".
    graydude likes this.
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  10. #69
    Distinguished Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    They shoot when they FEEL their life is in danger, just like any one of us would do.
    It just seems that they argue they felt like their lives were in danger under much more dubious circumstances than normal citizens and get away with it more often.

    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    There are cops out on the street that 50-60 years ago never would have made on to the force.
    The romanticized past is often nothing more than wishful nostalgia. I think back then, there were plenty of bad cops. They got away with a lot more stuff than they should have. Remember when cops could rough up people to get information? That was never legal, but they got away with it. Some things, they just could not cover up, like the murder of Santos Rodriguez back in 1973. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2013...rs-and-dallas/ The cop was using a gun pointed at the head of a teenager to get him to confess to a crime that later fingerprint analysis didn't indicate he committed...and was pulling the trigger to scare the kid. Because the cop was incompetent and had not unloaded the gun fully, he left a round in the cylinder and killed Santos on shot #2.

    There will always be bad cops and there have always been bad cops. That is reality. Frank Serpico knew all about that in the 1960s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico
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  11. #70
    Senior Member Array KILTED COWBOY's Avatar
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    There is a big difference between "bad cops" and inept cops.
    Yes, there will always be bad cops as in any other profession but when you allow people to wear a badge that 50 years ago would not made the grade you have problems.
    I grew up in a cop family in the late 50's to the 80"s and those men wearing the badge were some of the finest, bravest, compassionate men I ever met.
    Most if not all of them had just come back from the war. Not romanticizing the past, just the facts of my personal interaction with them.
    Most made a lifetime commitments to the force. Most all had retired after 20-30 years on the force.

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    - if a leo reasonably feels the need to use force, then the law allows it

    I'd like to hear one of LEOs to comment on that (unless you are one), since that seems like a very poor definition.

    Leo use of force continuum:

    Presence
    Verbalization
    mace/tazer
    firearm

    When I was on it was

    Presence
    verbalization
    mace/stick
    firearm
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  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    Sorry cops do not wake up in the morning and think. I'm gonna kill me someone today.
    Cops do not kill people whenever they FEEL like it.
    They shoot when they FEEL their life is in danger, just like any one of us would do.
    If the cops didn't think that there was a target on their back, literally and figuratively, the tension level would go way down and so would these bad outcomes.
    Cities are trying to fill empty squad cars, Dallas is down over 800 officers.
    High caliber people are seeking employment elsewhere. There are cops out on the street that 50-60 years ago never would have made on to the force.
    The community, social justice agitators also are culpable and have blood on their hands
    I donít really care what the officer woke up thinking, or feeling. I care whether or not they will shoot my family member just because they see the door open to the house. This lady is no less dead because of what that officer felt when he woke up.
    Pain and Cnon like this.
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  14. #73
    Senior Member Array KILTED COWBOY's Avatar
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    Very emotional subject. Yes I would be angry if my family got killed in a bad shooting.
    This still boils down to in some cases to poor training and people who have no business being police officers
    Until that and the social problems in many minority communities is addressed.
    This will continue to happen and the competent cops will feel the heat or leave the force.
    Seems to happen in the big cities more, some blame needs to be put on the city governments.

  15. #74
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    I donít really care what the officer woke up thinking, or feeling. I care whether or not they will shoot my family member just because they see the door open to the house. This lady is no less dead because of what that officer felt when he woke up.
    One can't be guaranteed of anything where individual responses are concerned. Let me see if I've interpreted your above correctly.

    You're actually worried about leo's shooting your family members?

    I'd bet the odds of any family having a member killed by leo's because they see a door open is so low as to be statistically insignificant.
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  16. #75
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    One can't be guaranteed of anything where individual responses are concerned. Let me see if I've interpreted your above correctly.

    You're actually worried about leo's shooting your family members?

    I'd bet the odds of any family having a member killed by leo's because they see a door open is so low as to be statistically insignificant.
    Iím sure the family of the victim never imagined she would die this way. I never said there was a high probability of it happening. The fact that people will take the officers side is a big concern though.
    We get the government we deserve.

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