The Socialism argument

The Socialism argument

This is a discussion on The Socialism argument within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Socialism – A system which advocates collective or governmental ownership, control, and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services in ...

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Thread: The Socialism argument

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    The Socialism argument

    Socialism – A system which advocates collective or governmental ownership, control, and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services in a state.


    In recent times in our country we have been seeing and hearing a lot about the benefits and wonders of socialism while capitalism is suffering repeated negative hits by the people who suggest that perhaps a move to socialism would be better for all Americans. Some politicians have openly laid claim to supporting socialism and have made no effort to hide the fact that if elected, they would do all they can to implement socialistic policies. What they are not telling people is that in order to move to socialism economically, a change in the fundamental design of our system of government would be required; in fact would be absolutely necessary in order for socialism to work. But they’re missing one very important fact in all of this.

    Replacing our system of government would be illegal. It wouldn’t matter if 60, 75, or 90 percent of the people voted for it. It would still be illegal. Article IV, Section 4 of the United States Constitution says the following..

    “The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..”

    It doesn’t say any form of government the people happen to vote for or that some politician, on a whim, decides to implement. It is quite clear what it means and what the Founders had intended for us. There are only two ways in which socialism could replace our republic. Through amending the Constitution or through open rebellion, and I don’t see either of those avenues happening.

    Still with politicians, and their supporting cast, nothing would surprise me.
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    There are extremely few "socialist" states. Denmark & Sweden are often held up as successful examples but neither is socialist. They both have strong capitalist structures with a lot of "social programs". The implementation of social programs is NOT socialism. It is the redistribution of wealth through various methods.

    None of the Democratic presidential candidates actually advocate the government taking over the means of production and distribution of goods and services with the elimination of private sector businesses with the possible exception of our health care system. Even Bernie, who has no idea what he is ever talking about regarding economics/business, advocates true socialism....Democratic Socialism or otherwise.

    So, the real question: is it pure "socialism" that the center and right object to or the expansion of "social programs" via redistributive policies, which are two distinctly different models?

    ETA: It would IMO be extremely helpful if the media and politicians began using the proper terminology and called all these progressive ideas what they are....redistribution on wealth. The general public might understand what they are actually advocating.
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    Defining “socialism” is pretty tricky. The word has been used for systems that are very different from each other - the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, the current “comminalism” model of China, and European states with lots of welfare.

    When it comes to the current crop of “socialist” politicians in America, I think what they intend is to mimic the last. It should be clear enough that it doesn’t work well, but I don’t think the Constitution is much of a safeguard against it. States are given a lot of leeway in how they spend money. If the question is “should the government provide economic support,” the answer from the people seems to be a resounding “sometimes!” This leaves the door open to a lot of potential expansion of welfare programs.

    The real danger, imho, is the intent to nationalize entire sectors of the economy, like healthcare.
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    The continuum of economic systems has the Communism, the worst form of Socialism, at one end and unbridles capitalism on the other end. Somewhere in between we have the United States of America with all its warts. I am staying here and hoping to contribute to a system with safety nets for the needy and restrictions on the greedy. All things in moderation.

    Socialism would be a revolution in America. One never knows how a revolution will end up. I prefer evolution because an believe all lasting and good change is incremental not revolutionary. Right now in the US the 10% greedy are getting the most bang for the buck. But what goes around comes around. Someday we common folk will get a little bigger share of the pie but not through socialism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatchee View Post
    There are extremely few "socialist" states. Denmark & Sweden are often held up as successful examples but neither is socialist. They both have strong capitalist structures with a lot of "social programs". The implementation of social programs is NOT socialism. It is the redistribution of wealth through various methods.
    Well, we've had this discussion before, but it applies here too. If "social programs" redistribute wealth regardless of the consent of those who have the wealth, it is essentially saying what is yours is not yours. It belongs to the state to redistribute as it wishes. It is one thing to tax people to fund the essential functions of government that help us all. It is another to say, "You have too much, we are going to take it from you and give to people who are not as productive AND will vote for us to stay in office. That is state-sanctioned theft. It is the seizure of property without due process. It is unconstitutional.

    You can play semantics with the term "socialism" all you want, but come up with a better term for "social programs" that call them out for what they really are. Until then, I maintain "social programs" = "socialism," because they let the government steal my capital, as if it were theirs to take, to use for things the Constitution does not empower them to do. This is not some academic thesis. This is real life.
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    But the constitution is a living document subject to an understanding informed by contemporary mores, experience, and perspective. What "Republican Form of Government" means has to be viewed within a flexible context that is informed by modern experience and feelings. Come join us in the 21st century with all right-think peoples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS1980 View Post
    But the constitution is a living document subject to an understanding informed by contemporary mores, experience, and perspective. What "Republican Form of Government" means has to be viewed within a flexible context that is informed by modern experience and feelings. Come join us in the 21st century with all right-think peoples.
    Sarcasm, I hope. I don't think you mean "right-think." I believe the new term is "woke."
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Sarcasm, I hope. I don't think you mean "right-think." I believe the new term is "woke."
    Sarcasm? You would scoff at my fundamental perspective? I'm hurt. Where's my safe space.....
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    Well, we've had this discussion before, but it applies here too. If "social programs" redistribute wealth regardless of the consent of those who have the wealth, it is essentially saying what is yours is not yours. It belongs to the state to redistribute as it wishes. It is one thing to tax people to fund the essential functions of government that help us all. It is another to say, "You have too much, we are going to take it from you and give to people who are not as productive AND will vote for us to stay in office.I agree with your previous thoughts That is state-sanctioned theft. It is the seizure of property without due process. It is unconstitutionalGood luck with that argument even before a conservative SC..

    You can play semantics with the term "socialism" all you want, but come up with a better term for "social programs" that call them out for what they really are Again: Redistributive Economy because that is what it is!!. Until then, I maintain "social programs" = "socialism," because they let the government steal my capital, as if it were theirs to take, to use for things the Constitution does not empower them to do. And you will once again be wrongThis is not some academic thesis. This is real life. That is why calling things what they actually are is so important!

    Tell the average American that we are moving towards "socialism" and you will not get that much of a reaction. Tell the same people that the government is going to redistribute their earning and you will get a much stronger negative reaction. That is why the MSM and politicians avoid using the term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatchee View Post
    Tell the average American that we are moving towards "socialism" and you will not get that much of a reaction. Tell the same people that the government is going to redistribute their earning and you will get a much stronger negative reaction. That is why the MSM and politicians avoid using the term.
    A manifestation of public education for the majority. They have been told over and over again how evil profit is, how only the greedy are rich, how everyone is equal, and that we live in a democracy. Now, back to my pop-up tent with rain sounds and pretty lights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatchee View Post
    Good luck with that argument even before a conservative SC. The SC has allowed a lot of our rights to be trampled. Doesn't make it "right." If you are using the SC as a barometer of constitutionality, you are way off.

    That is why calling things what they actually are is so important! I call 'em like I sees 'em.

    Tell the same people that the government is going to redistribute their earning and you will get a much stronger negative reaction. That is why the MSM and politicians avoid using the term. Where have you been lately? Every other article about some new multi-billion dollar give away. You think people don't know that it is their money that will have to fund it?
    I stand by my statement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS1980 View Post
    But the constitution is a living document subject to an understanding informed by contemporary mores, experience, and perspective. What "Republican Form of Government" means has to be viewed within a flexible context that is informed by modern experience and feelings. Come join us in the 21st century with all right-think peoples.
    I do not subscribe to this "living,breathing" Constitution argument.
    The Constitution lays out in no uncertain terms what powers are given to the feds and what powers are given to the states, and what powers are given to we the people.
    The only way the Constitution can be living is to add amendments to it. It also lays out how to do that

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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    I do not subscribe to this "living,breathing" Constitution argument.
    The Constitution lays out in no uncertain terms what powers are given to the feds and what powers are given to the states, and what powers are given to we the people.
    The only way the Constitution can be living is to add amendments to it. It also lays out how to do that
    I feel sad when I hear people talk in absolute terms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InVegas View Post
    “There is no difference between Communism and Socialism, except in the same ultimate end: Communism proposes to enslave men by force, Socialism by the vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide”— Ayn Rand
    You just specified the difference that you say does not exist and explains why I said communism is the worst form of socialism.
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