Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard? - Page 4

Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard?

This is a discussion on Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY Today, people are questioning again whether or not the holocaust actually happened. These trials do serve a purpose in reminding ...

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Thread: Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard?

  1. #46
    Member Array simonp67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    Today, people are questioning again whether or not the holocaust actually happened.
    These trials do serve a purpose in reminding people what did happen.
    The Nazis were monsters. I do not give a pass to those who say they were just following orders.
    Well said


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  2. #47
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    trial in a juvenile court...70 or 80 years after the fact...as if this child had any choice, and what Justice for condemning a 90 something man in a juvee court, corrupt virtue signaling BS, imho the entire German population was COMPLICITE in the death camps, they on trial ?? just old men in a Childs Court ??
    Last edited by CaptSmith; October 18th, 2019 at 05:33 PM. Reason: meaning

  3. #48
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    You don't hear much about the crimes committed by Japan during WW2

    I read this book , very enlightening "The Rape of Nanking"

    https://smile.amazon.com/Rape-Nankin...s=books&sr=1-1


    https://www.history.com/topics/japan/nanjing-massacre

    In late 1937, over a period of six weeks, Imperial Japanese Army forces brutally murdered hundreds of thousands of people—including both soldiers and civilians—in the Chinese city of Nanking (or Nanjing). The horrific events are known as the Nanking Massacre or the Rape of Nanking, as between 20,000 and 80,000 women were sexually assaulted



    The contest to kill 100 people using a sword ,

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cont..._using_a_sword

    The contest to kill 100 people using a sword (百人斬り競争 hyakunin-giri kyōsō) was a contest between two Japanese Army officers, which took place during the Japanese invasion of China. The goal of the contest was to see who could kill 100 people first with a sword. The two officers were later executed on war crime charges for their involvement.[1] Since that time, the historicity of the event has been hotly contested, often by Japanese nationalists or negationist historians seeking to invalidate the historiography of the Nanking Massacre and by descendants of the two officers.[



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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    My father in law told me of the horror of scenes like these when his unit liberated several "camps."


    Attachment 304320


    Why prosecute a 93 year old? If for absolutely no other reason, because someone needs to answer for this. Does anyone really think the 17 year old SS butchers walked by this kind of thing every day or so and believed they were throwing a picnic? My father in law was 18 and he knew exactly what it represented at first look.

    Even though I can't support it theologically, (because hell will be hell because it is the only place in the universe where God is not present) I hope there is an especially terrible place there for such people.

    Consequences, ladies and gentlemen...consequences.
    This photo is one of a display of shoes at the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem, adjacent to this is another display of eyeglasses, and other rooms of luggage and clothing. There's also a room of drawings that were made by the children - now that's a heartbreaker. I've seen these many times in the past, and each time the tears cannot be controlled. It's something that stays with you forever. There are those that are forgiving, and want to put that time behind us, but those folks are either blind or stupid. I hope the search continues until there is no possibility at all of any participant being alive. Freezing and confiscating the assets of war criminals family would be acceptable to me. Accountability is a must, but sadly too late in coming. And America actually protected some of the criminals - sad.

  5. #50
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    Some years ago our coin club went to DC to tour the coin collection at the Smithsonian, having some extra time a few of us went to the Holocaust Museum. That had to be the most humbling experience I have ever experienced. As you enter you are given a set of “papers” with a person’s name on them. As you go through you can follow along with the experiences of your person. It was amazing the brutality many suffered from the hand of their Nazi captors. I don’t care how old they are I have no problem with hunting them down and prosecuting them.

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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    He most certainly gets no sympathy but the question asked was : Is anything accomplished by putting this 93 year old on trial now? I suppose there is in terms of symbolic justice for his victim's families and some overall satisfaction. Other than that I'm not sure. I have mixed feelings.
    If he took part in the atrocities, he should go to trial, no matter his age. No different that someone kidnapping a child, raping them, they ripping them apart. If the evidence reasonably supports the accusation, they still need to go to jail or hung, as I believe many of the people responsible for this atrocity were.
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    Normally, I would be the first to say, "Hang 'em high!" We all know the history of the SS and the atrocities they committed throughout the war. However, being a student of history has taught me that not all can be as it seems and a closer look is often warranted. In this case, we have a man who was 17 when he was assigned as a guard at a concentration camp in the 1944/45 time frame. The SS of that time frame was not the SS of 1939, nor was the Wermacht or the rest of Germany. Many millions of German troops had been lost by that time in the war and the high command was getting desperate, both for man-power and for a way to stave off defeat. If this man was 17 in 1944, he would have been born in 1927 and would have lived through the Great Depression which, bad as it was in the US, was worse in Germany. He would have been 4 y/o when Hitler came to power. He would have been indoctrinated from that age that the Fuhrer always knows best and that Hitler should be worshipped. He would also know that any dissent was quickly and ruthlessly squashed by the Gestapo. I wonder how many here would have the courage to say even now, "I won't comply," especially knowing the end result would probably be a firing squad and their family may suffer to boot? How about when you were 17 y/o? It is one thing to make judgments from the safety of your home, knowing that the chance of finding yourself in that situation is really non-existent. It's quite another when you are actually in that life-or-death situation. Perhaps he is guilty of war crimes we don't know about. But,as a private, I highly doubt he had much control over who lived or died, or even much of anything else in that camp.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnsoldier4fun View Post
    Normally, I would be the first to say, "Hang 'em high!" We all know the history of the SS and the atrocities they committed throughout the war. However, being a student of history has taught me that not all can be as it seems and a closer look is often warranted. In this case, we have a man who was 17 when he was assigned as a guard at a concentration camp in the 1944/45 time frame. The SS of that time frame was not the SS of 1939, nor was the Wermacht or the rest of Germany. Many millions of German troops had been lost by that time in the war and the high command was getting desperate, both for man-power and for a way to stave off defeat. If this man was 17 in 1944, he would have been born in 1927 and would have lived through the Great Depression which, bad as it was in the US, was worse in Germany. He would have been 4 y/o when Hitler came to power. He would have been indoctrinated from that age that the Fuhrer always knows best and that Hitler should be worshipped. He would also know that any dissent was quickly and ruthlessly squashed by the Gestapo. I wonder how many here would have the courage to say even now, "I won't comply," especially knowing the end result would probably be a firing squad and their family may suffer to boot? How about when you were 17 y/o? It is one thing to make judgments from the safety of your home, knowing that the chance of finding yourself in that situation is really non-existent. It's quite another when you are actually in that life-or-death situation. Perhaps he is guilty of war crimes we don't know about. But,as a private, I highly doubt he had much control over who lived or died, or even much of anything else in that camp.
    He was only following orders...
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    He was only following orders...
    Basically, he was almost as much a victim of the regime as the inmates of the camp. His choice at 17? Serve as he was ordered or be shot! Not only that, but the Gestapo was not opposed to rounding up the entire family and putting them in a concentration camp, much as our Allies, the Soviets, did. Again, at that age, and knowing that nothing you did would stop what was going on, I highly doubt many would have the courage to face the consequences of disobeying. Many of our revered leaders turned blind eyes to the crimes of others in much more powerful positions than this man occupied, even going so far as to help them escape their deserved judgment. You do remember a man named Klaus Barbie, don't you? You know, the "Butcher of Lyon." US intelligence operatives not only employed him after the war but helped him escape to S. America. Like I said, it's real easy to make judgments from the safety of a warm, cozy home when you won't have to face any consequences and quite another when you are actually in that situation.
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  10. #55
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    George Soros gets a lot of flack on here for what he did when he was 14, why this guy should get a pass because he was 17 and is old now is beyond me. I got more concern over what I'm going to have for dinner tomorrow than what happens to this guy in his remaining years. He's lucky.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by KILTED COWBOY View Post
    I do not give a pass to those who say they were just following orders.
    - Who else was just following orders?
    - Pilots who bombed NAGASAKI and HIROSHIMA killing 300,000 babies and women and elderly Japanese civilians
    - Pilots who bombed DRESDEN killing 500,000 German babies, women, and children and elderly.
    - Pilots who FIRE-BOMBED Berlin Killing 100,000 German babies, women, and children and elderly.

    - Do I even need to continue scratching the surface here?

    - My POINT is that war is war... EVERYONE was 'just following orders'... from the Nazi's operating the death-camps to the Americans and English fire-boming women and children.

    - it's war. This 93 year old elder was probably only just a 17 y/o SS kid just following orders... just like the 17 /yo kids dropping fire-bombs over schools and hospitals in Germany.

    - they were ALL just following orders.

    - the war is OVER. Long over. Let the man be old and happy... and let him reflect on what he did or didn't do... same as everyone who participates in war... including some of my in-laws who are severely PTSD and messed up because they were given ORDERS to 'neutralize' women and children over in the middle-east... One in-law gets $600 a month from the govt for mental issues dealing with being ordered to 'neutralize' a bunch of women and children over there... again, it's war. Anything goes.

    - let everyone involved self-reflect and heal. The horrors are done.









    .

  12. #57
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    I appreciate your compassionate perspective, Starlights; however, I do think there is a difference between a military operation that results in civilian deaths, e.g. bombing of Nagasaki, and intentional genocide. Agreed, war is brutal and horrific. And, agreed, only the victors get to decide who faces war crimes trials. Nevertheless, war cannot be avoided. Murder can.

    In re this 97 y/o former SS soldier, I think a trial is worthwhile. Let the trial process develop the facts of how complicit or not he was. Let justice be fair and merciful. It would have been better to have had such a trial back in 1947 or 48, but here we are today. Let the law prevail.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    I am strongly supportive of the efforts to track down concentration camp monsters in the post war era, but this seems a bit over the top. He wasn't even identified as being one of "them" until some of his SS uniform gear was "discovered" and then his signature matched to a record book from the camp.

    Your thoughts?

    Well, then he was always one of them who had just been overlooked.
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    @starlights : Have you been in the military? Do you understand the difference between lawful orders and unlawful orders? Do you understand that the SS was neither military or police, but a political organization not deserving of the defense of "just following orders?" You are decrying events based on outcomes, not military law or international treaties.

    I was a nuclear bombardier. I had SIOP targets that would have killed millions. But my orders were in accordance with the UCMJ and International Law. I would have only gotten the order in the gravest extreme. If you don't get the difference, you are out of your depth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptSmith View Post
    trial in a juvenile court...70 or 80 years after the fact...as if this child had any choice, and what Justice for condemning a 90 something man in a juvee court, corrupt virtue signaling BS, imho the entire German population was COMPLICITE in the death camps, they on trial ?? just old men in a Childs Court ??
    Poor innocent 17 and 18 year old children forced to wear the Death's Head logo and watch as innocent people were daily led to to the gas chambers for slaughter.

    Poor innocent 17 and 18 year old children throwing grenades into buses full of innocent people in Vietnam.

    Poor innocent 17 and 18 year old children in Africa forced to massacre innocent people with AK-47s.

    Poor innocent 17 and 18 year old children being forced to strap on a bomb and blow innocent people up.

    Poor innocent 17 and 18 year old children in Chicago killing people every weekend for fun.

    With all due respect, you must live in a different world than I do.
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