Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard? - Page 5

Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard?

This is a discussion on Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 It took about 160 staff to run a death camp. Was a low-level guard any less complicit than the guy dropping ...

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Thread: Is this really benefiting society- 93 yr old on trial for being 17 yr old SS guard?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    It took about 160 staff to run a death camp. Was a low-level guard any less complicit than the guy dropping the gas cannister into the acid?

    If a former staffer's life is shortened by one day as a result of being discovered at this late date, it's good by me.
    I agree!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Let's keep in mind he was SS. The SS is another thing people are starting to forget about the horror of the Nazis. The SS was not German Army or police. It was the Nazi Party's paramilitary organization, loyal to Hitler himself, more than Germany as a country. They were like uniformed, legal terrorists with greater authority than the army or police. Just having been a member should have been a war crime.
    First, I am not defending or denying what happened, I am just concerned with accuracy here. The reality is that many in SS uniforms were police. The book by Christopher Browning, Ordinary Men:
    Browning is best known for his 1992 book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, a study of German Ordnungspolizei (Order Police) Reserve Unit 101, which committed massacres and round-ups of Jews for deportations to Nazi death camps in German-occupied Poland in 1942. The conclusion of the book, influenced in part by the famous Milgram experiments popularized in the 1970s, was that the men of Unit 101 killed out of obedience to authority and peer pressure, not blood-lust or primal hatred.[citation needed]

    As presented in the study, the men of Unit 101 were not ardent Nazis but ordinary middle-aged men of working class background from Hamburg, who had been drafted but found ineligible for regular military duty. After their return to Poland in June 1942 the men were ordered to terrorize Jews in the ghettos during Operation Reinhard and committed massacres of Polish Jews; men, women and children, in the towns of Józefów and Łomazy.[2] In other cases, they were ordered to kill a number of Jews in a town or area, usually helped by Trawnikis. The commander of the unit once gave his men the choice of opting out if they found it too hard, and fewer than 12 men opted out in a battalion of 500.[3]

    Browning provides evidence to support the notion that not all of these men were hateful antisemites. He includes the testimony of men who say that they begged to be released from this work and to be placed elsewhere. In one instance, two fathers claimed that they could not kill children and thus asked to be given other work. Browning also tells of a man who demanded his release, obtained it and was then promoted once he returned to Germany.
    From Wikipedia

    As I read this I saw the shadows of "do it for the team" taken to the level of horrific. However, they were police and they were carrying out the orders of the various courts in the region.

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    Here are some important facts from the article.

    He's being tried as a juvenile in juvenile court since he was under 21 at the time he was a guard.

    Nowhere in the article does it say that his SS uniform or memorabilia was found in his possession, that evidence was found in the concentration camp archives.

    He's accused of....
    German newspaper Der Spiegel reports that he is accused specifically of killing 5,000 people by creating and maintaining hostile conditions, 200 by gassing and 30 using a Genickschussanlage - a device for surprise executions with victims shot in the back of the neck.
    His trial comes after a landmark case that overturned a 1969 ruling that being a staff member at Auschwitz was not enough to secure a conviction.

    Oskar Groening, known as the bookkeeper of Auschwitz, was given a four-year prison sentence for being accessory to the murder of 300,000 Jews in 2016, without evidence of involvement in a specific killing - a move hailed by Nazi hunters as a major shift.

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    Wow, a lot more people defending the actions of Nazis in this thread than I would've thought. No wonder our country is so messed up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasaf View Post
    First, I am not defending or denying what happened, I am just concerned with accuracy here. The reality is that many in SS uniforms were police. The book by Christopher Browning, Ordinary Men:
    From Wikipedia

    As I read this I saw the shadows of "do it for the team" taken to the level of horrific. However, they were police and they were carrying out the orders of the various courts in the region.
    We have a saying where I come from: Just because your cat has kittens in the oven, doesn't make 'em biscuits. Meaning: Calling the SS "police" units "police" in the sense it should be meant is just buying into the Nazi narrative. The SS police were never "Old Officer Friendly" whose mission was "To Protect and Serve." They were formed from Hitler's personal bodyguard and expanded to become concentration camp guards. They never did policing as we think of it.

    And no matter what their motivations, you don't participate in operations that intentionally execute innocent people, especially women and children. To do so is an abomination. When you put on a uniform and assume the role of military or police, you pledge to lay down your life for what is right. And those actions cannot be right in any scenario. You should allow yourself to be shot first. Those are not lawful orders in anyone's military or police unit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    We have a saying where I come from: Just because your cat has kittens in the oven, doesn't make 'em biscuits. Meaning: Calling the SS "police" units "police" in the sense it should be meant is just buying into the Nazi narrative. The SS police were never "Old Officer Friendly" whose mission was "To Protect and Serve." They were formed from Hitler's personal bodyguard and expanded to become concentration camp guards. They never did policing as we think of it.

    And no matter what their motivations, you don't participate in operations that intentionally execute innocent people, especially women and children. To do so is an abomination. When you put on a uniform and assume the role of military or police, you pledge to lay down your life for what is right. And those actions cannot be right in any scenario. You should allow yourself to be shot first. Those are not lawful orders in anyone's military or police unit.
    That is a wonderful example of the "No True Scottsman" fallacy.

    No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample. Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).

    The following is a simplified rendition of the fallacy:

    Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
    Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
    Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
    I suspect that somewhere in the world, in the 1930s'-1940s', that somewhere you would be able to find people that would hold that no true police officer would refuse to carry out the instructions from a court.

    Again, this is in no way to excuse what happened. It is important to both study what happened, and why it was able to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreedDryrot View Post
    Wow, a lot more people defending the actions of Nazis in this thread than I would've thought. No wonder our country is so messed up.
    Who is defending the Nazis?

    It's reasonable to debate putting a 93 year old man on trial for actions that occured when he was 17, and that's what we are doing.

    No wonder this county is so messed up when intellectual debate must yield to simplistic talking points.
    Last edited by WebleyHunter; October 19th, 2019 at 07:53 PM.
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    Well the "simplistic point" is that no one on this forum ever actually fought a Nazi - whether Wehrmacht, or SS combat units. I doubt anyone here was ever in the ruins of Nazi Germany in 1945. Certainly no one here ever walked into a death camp and saw what was done there with their own eyes.

    Those who actually believe the SS were "police" working at the order of the German courts have, and I put it kindly, been fed something more appropriate for mushrooms. Even a casual reading of real history should enlighten you. The only "court" the SS worked for was the "court" of Adolf Hitler.
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    Heinrich Himmler, Architect of the SS

    https://www.history.com/topics/world...i/ss#section_2

    On January 6, 1929, Hitler named Heinrich Himmler commander of the SS, which at the time had close to 300 members. Himmler, who like Hitler was a fervent anti-Semite, had joined the Nazi Party in 1923 and eventually served as Hitler’s deputy propaganda chief. Himmler was determined to separate the SS from the SA, transform the SS into an elite force that was larger and more potent than the SA and, finally, alter the function of the organization within the Nazi Party.

    Heinrich Himmler was captured by Allied soldiers. He committed suicide on May 23, 1945, by ingesting a cyanide capsule.




    Heinrich Himmler , https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...inrich-himmler



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    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    Who is defending the Nazis?

    It's reasonable to debate putting a 93 year old man on trial for actions that occured when he was 17, and that's what we are doing.

    No wonder this county is so messed up when intellectual debate must yield to simplistic talking points.
    Are you suggesting there should be a stature of limitations on genocide? Or is the problem the fact that if convicted, he will only become more of a burden on society for the rest of his time when they should be walking him outside and executing him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    Are you suggesting there should be a stature of limitations on genocide? Or is the problem the fact that if convicted, he will only become more of a burden on society for the rest of his time when they should be walking him outside and executing him?
    Nobody has been able to answer this so far- What is the prosecutorial history for other lower enlisted SS and underage SS who saw duty at the camps? If they have been tried all along, right next to the sadistic "ramp" officers and "doctors", then this guy should not be any different. If they haven't been tried before, and this guy (and the switchboard operators) is getting attention now because he happens to be one of a very few prosecution targets still available to the Nazi Hunters (not dissimilar to the management of the Buggy Whip Plant looking future revenue plots), then discussion is warranted.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    Nobody has been able to answer this so far- What is the prosecutorial history for other lower enlisted SS and underage SS who saw duty at the camps? If they have been tried all along, right next to the sadistic "ramp" officers and "doctors", then this guy should not be any different. If they haven't been tried before, and this guy (and the switchboard operators) is getting attention now because he happens to be one of a very few prosecution targets still available to the Nazi Hunters (not dissimilar to the management of the Buggy Whip Plant looking future revenue plots), then discussion is warranted.

    No matter what the prosecutorial history the law is what it is. Now that some liberal cities have decided to stop prosecuting some crimes, as time goes on, will we be upset when someone decides to prosecute someone for a crime in those cities, or will we be glad the person is being held accountable?

    To answer your question, I dont have a list in front of me of all of the SS soldiers and who has been prosecuted and who hasnt, but my 2 minute google search turned up this similar case that was just a couple years ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhold_Hanning
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebleyHunter View Post
    Just a food for thought question...

    Would we have put a former CSA Private who was 17 in 1864 and served a guard at Andersonville on trail in 1940?
    Should we have put a former USA private who was 17 during the war and served as guard at the infamous Camp Douglas on trail in 1940?

    Sadly for us, the Confederate States of America were not the only ones to commit atrocities during the war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Should we have put a former USA private who was 17 during the war and served as guard at the infamous Camp Douglas on trail in 1940?

    Sadly for us, the Confederate States of America were not the only ones to commit atrocities during the war.
    Even General Curtis LeMay once remarked the only reason he was not tried as a war criminal is because we won the war.
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