Goodbye Facial Recognition - Page 2

Goodbye Facial Recognition

This is a discussion on Goodbye Facial Recognition within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Osprey It does not matter. In TX you do not have to produce ID unless you are arrested. He got put into ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    It does not matter. In TX you do not have to produce ID unless you are arrested. He got put into handcuffs because he refused to ID.

    He was released after they ran his ID to see if he was wanted for anything.

    If you think this is OK for any situation where one is detained and is not legally required to ID themselves, then we live in a different kind of America.
    It absolutely does matter. If you are stopped for a traffic violation it is generally not worth the trouble, if you were stopped covered in blood carrying a bloody knife it is worth the trouble.

    Then there are extenuating circumstances. He had to have done SOMETHING to warrant such treatment.

    I was a cop in Texas for almost 20 years, I am familiar with the law.
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  2. #17
    Member Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    It absolutely does matter. If you are stopped for a traffic violation it is generally not worth the trouble, if you were stopped covered in blood carrying a bloody knife it is worth the trouble.

    Then there are extenuating circumstances. He had to have done SOMETHING to warrant such treatment.

    I was a cop in Texas for almost 20 years, I am familiar with the law.
    If you were a cop in TX then you know that carrying a bloody knife is a reason to approach a person and ask questions. And you may detain that person as well. If you were a TX LEO then you also know you are not required to give ID unless actually arrested.

    Fair point about a vehicle stop. Then you are required to show ID.

    And if you really want to know, he was taking pictures of a police department from a public location. The LEO wanted to know why and pressed the issue when the man refused to ID himself.

    If you still think that is OK, then well..........

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    If you were a cop in TX then you know that carrying a bloody knife is a reason to approach a person and ask questions. And you may detain that person as well. If you were a TX LEO then you also know you are not required to give ID unless actually arrested.

    Fair point about a vehicle stop. Then you are required to show ID.

    And if you really want to know, he was taking pictures of a police department from a public location. The LEO wanted to know why and pressed the issue when the man refused to ID himself.

    If you still think that is OK, then well..........
    So he was performing a possible pre attack intelligence gathering operation.

    He does not have to PRODUCE ID......

    Acting like a douche generally gets one treated accordingly.

    Neither one of us was there. You need ALL the facts.

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  4. #19
    Member Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    So he was performing a possible pre attack intelligence gathering operation.

    He does not have to PRODUCE ID......

    Acting like a douche generally gets one treated accordingly.
    And that is what I said (bolded part)

    So, acting like a DB give LE the right to abuse the law and an individual, even when the person is doing a legal activity?

    Did I get that right?

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Psycho41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Which I have seen they already have abused. There was a person being detained that refused to ID which is legal in TX. They handcuffed him and ran the scanner on him anyway to ID him without his consent.
    Texas is not a stop and identify state. A person has no duty to provide identification unless they are arrested. A police officer may detain someone with RAS, but the person does not have to provide ID unless and until they are arrested.

    Texas Penal Code 38.02
    FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho41 View Post
    Texas is not a stop and identify state. A person has no duty to provide identification unless they are arrested. A police officer may detain someone with RAS, but the person does not have to provide ID unless and until they are arrested.

    Texas Penal Code 38.02
    Trust me, I know it well.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Which I have seen they already have abused. There was a person being detained that refused to ID which is legal in TX. They handcuffed him and ran the scanner on him anyway to ID him without his consent.

    I can see this technology being abused easily. They just have it embedded in the bodycam and "boom" instant ID for everyone they encounter.

    My friends, this will not end well.
    I'm not going to argue this with you because you've not ever worked in law enforcement and you're not a lawyer. But here are some simple facts.

    If your face is not in a facial recognition system, how would you imagine they have anything to compare your face to?

    If you've never been finger printed, how would you think they would match your fingerprints since they are not in any database?

    If your cardiac rhythm is not in any database, how would they use a cardiac rhythm to identify you?

    You really need to sit down with a criminal defense attorney. The right not to ID is not a carte blanche thing. It is very highly dependent on the circumstances, why the officer is asking for it, and/or how you choose to answer. Here is the pertinent law:

    Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.

    (b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:

    (1) lawfully arrested the person;

    (2) lawfully detained the person; or

    (3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.

    (c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:

    (1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or

    (2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

    (d) If it is shown on the trial of an offense under this section that the defendant was a fugitive from justice at the time of the offense, the offense is:

    (1) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or

    (2) a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

    (e) If conduct that constitutes an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under Section 106.07, Alcoholic Beverage Code, the actor may be prosecuted only under Section 106.07.


    Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 869, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987. Acts 1991, 72nd Leg., ch. 821, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1991; Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1009, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2003.
    In reading, it is wise to also note subsections (b), (c), and (d). Most people just stop at (a) and say "ahaa."
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    And that is what I said (bolded part)

    So, acting like a DB give LE the right to abuse the law and an individual, even when the person is doing a legal activity?

    Did I get that right?
    The guy was acting in a suspicious manner, was detained and identified. With all the ambushes on cops, I would ID him too. He could have been a loony toon, or he could have been performing an intelligence gathering operation. Either way he needs to be identified. Depending on how he was acting, I may have even got a warrant to search his camera.

    How would you feel if he was on the sidewalk in front of your house taking pictures of your family, following them to work and taking pictures?
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  9. #24
    Member Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    I'm not going to argue this with you because you've not ever worked in law enforcement and you're not a lawyer. But here are some simple facts.

    If your face is not in a facial recognition system, how would you imagine they have anything to compare your face to?

    If you've never been finger printed, how would you think they would match your fingerprints since they are not in any database?

    If your cardiac rhythm is not in any database, how would they use a cardiac rhythm to identify you?

    You really need to sit down with a criminal defense attorney. The right not to ID is not a carte blanche thing. It is very highly dependent on the circumstances, why the officer is asking for it, and/or how you choose to answer. Here is the pertinent law:
    Actually, for the things and situations, I am talking about I am pretty darn correct about them. I have a lawyer that defends people getting arrested and detained for these exact same situations and he wins all the time.

    I already mentioned in a post before where a LEO lied to my face telling me I had to ID and I refused. His buddy finally said I was correct and they ended up leaving.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    The guy was acting in a suspicious manner, was detained and identified. With all the ambushes on cops, I would ID him too. He could have been a loony toon, or he could have been performing an intelligence gathering operation. Either way he needs to be identified. Depending on how he was acting, I may have even got a warrant to search his camera.

    How would you feel if he was on the sidewalk in front of your house taking pictures of your family, following them to work and taking pictures?
    What part about the law do you not care about? Do you have any idea how many cities and towns are now being sued and losing every day on this one issue?


    Welcome to Nazi Germany folks!
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  11. #26
    Senior Member Array Psycho41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Trust me, I know it well.
    There have been many instances where citizens are lawfully exercising their constitutional rights to film public officials when acting in their official capacity in public - which courts have ruled cannot be used as a reason for detainment - being unlawfully detained or arrested. Some LEO may do it out of true ignorance of those rights, while a minority may due it simply because they do not like being filmed and even less when their "orders" (lawful or not) are not met with absolute compliance. The result is that lawsuits are filed and settlements paid. The taxpayers are the losers.
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    One thing is certain. One day you may really NEED that lawyer. It is also true that one day you may really NEED an officer willing to put his or her life on the line for you and your family. Being the generally good people they are, I'm willing to bet that on that day they will have all but forgotten every person they interact with who has an attitude.

    A wise man once told me a large part of becoming a mature adult is learning which hills are worth dying on.

    And I have sad news for you. In Nazi Germany you would never have been arrested for such an offense. You would have been shot. I suspect things are still a ways from that.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    What part about the law do you not care about? Do you have any idea how many cities and towns are now being sued and losing every day on this one issue?


    Welcome to Nazi Germany folks!
    Funny, but wrong. My guess being sued by someone out for their 15 minutes of fame by creating the incidents in the first place.

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  14. #29
    Member Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Do you guys really want to break this down. I will.

    Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.

    (b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:

    (1) lawfully arrested the person;

    (2) lawfully detained the person; or

    (3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.

    (c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:

    (1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or

    (2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

    (d) If it is shown on the trial of an offense under this section that the defendant was a fugitive from justice at the time of the offense, the offense is:

    (1) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or

    (2) a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

    (e) If conduct that constitutes an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under Section 106.07, Alcoholic Beverage Code, the actor may be prosecuted only under Section 106.07.
    (b) means that if detaine or arrested you can not falsely ID yourself. You are still not required to ID if detained. Just don't lie about. Has been proven in court many times over and is a settled deal.

    (c) is describing what type of misdemeanor you will be charged with

    (d) does the same thing for other circumstances described.

    I have been through this line by line with a lawyer that has won every time defending people or assisting them in filing complaints.

    I did not just read "a"
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    One other thing is certain though. If you decide the best option for you is to argue the law on the roadside with police, you will eventually be forced into court to argue your beliefs with a judge. In between that will be cuffs, a ride to jail and subsequent overnighter, posting bail, and the possible stigma of a criminal conviction on your record.

    I've met a few people who actually thought their sense of pride was worth all that. I saw a couple of folks do that with a far, far worse outcome. I would have thought carrying a gun as a legally armed citizen would have brought a different perspective. Law enforcement is not the enemy.

    The bottom line? None of your argument is really on topic.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

    "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." - Thomas Jefferson

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