Goodbye Facial Recognition - Page 3

Goodbye Facial Recognition

This is a discussion on Goodbye Facial Recognition within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I think this discussion has gone sideways regarding the whole "stop and ID" issue. So, can we all agree that some estates are Stop and ...

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Thread: Goodbye Facial Recognition

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Psycho41's Avatar
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    I think this discussion has gone sideways regarding the whole "stop and ID" issue. So, can we all agree that some estates are Stop and ID and others are not? Plus, even in Stop and ID states, there is a requirement that the police have cause to detain the person in the first place.

    So, the question is, would using lasers to identify people based on their heartbeat be considered contrary to a persons right to not identify themselves. Well, using facial recognition is not considered a violation of that right because there is no expectation of privacy when in public. So, using a person "face" for identification (to my knowledge) has not been ruled a violation of citizens' rights. But, using a laser to identify someone is definitely a new wrinkle. While they may be in public, their heartbeat is "concealed" much like the ID in their wallet is concealed. If there was technology to "read" a persons ID within their clothing or wallet I would think it would go against the whole basis of the right to not IDing. The fact that there isn't "yet" a database of everyone's heartbeat doesn't mean squat. The government has unlimited resources and could easily start compiling such a database. For example, you have to provide ID at many government offices (e.g. DMV) where they could implement scanners and match up the heartbeats to individuals. So, my opinion, is that the use of such technology could be deemed unconstitutional because one's heartbeat is not something that is considered "exposed" while in public. Plus, you add that detecting a person's heartbeat would also give away certain medical conditions, that is not a road I wish my government to go down.

  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    One other thing is certain though. If you decide the best option for you is to argue the law on the roadside with police, you will eventually be forced into court to argue your beliefs with a judge. In between that will be cuffs, a ride to jail and subsequent overnighter, posting bail, and the possible stigma of a criminal conviction on your record.

    I've met a few people who actually thought their sense of pride was worth all that. I saw a couple of folks do that with a far, far worse outcome. I would have thought carrying a gun as a legally armed citizen would have brought a different perspective. Law enforcement is not the enemy.
    Yep, If you are carrying a gun you have to ID yourself.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Cypher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    If your face is not in a facial recognition system, how would you imagine they have anything to compare your face to?
    If you'll allow my to put on my Tinfoil hat for a second, if a photograph of you exists anywhere on the Internet you're in a database somewhere. Facebeast runs their facial recognition software on any photo that gets uploaded. I used to use a photo of Red Forman (That 70s Show) as my avatar. After a while everytime anyone who had any connection with me posted a picture of Red Forman on Facebeast I got notified that someone was using a picture of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    If you've never been finger printed, how would you think they would match your fingerprints since they are not in any database?
    I was fingerprinted when I joined the Army, later I was required to submit a blood sample for the DNA database.

    I was fingerprinted when I went to work in a group home for kids.

    I was fingerprinted when I became security guard

    I was fingerprinted when I got my CHP and every time I renew it.

    I was fingerprinted when I volunteered for the security team at my church.

    Just because you're in the system doesn't make you a criminal

  4. #34
    Member Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    One other thing is certain though. If you decide the best option for you is to argue the law on the roadside with police, you will eventually be forced into court to argue your beliefs with a judge. In between that will be cuffs, a ride to jail and subsequent overnighter, posting bail, and the possible stigma of a criminal conviction on your record.

    I've met a few people who actually thought their sense of pride was worth all that. I saw a couple of folks do that with a far, far worse outcome. I would have thought carrying a gun as a legally armed citizen would have brought a different perspective. Law enforcement is not the enemy.
    I agree, Law Enforcement is not the enemy. I have the highest respect for LEO's and anyone that follows the law. I have ZERO respect for anyone that lies to me or tries to use their position of authority in an inappropriate or unlawful manner.

    Let me recap why I am passionate about this (and I did give a brief description before in another thread):

    I was running one day and two LEO stopped me. There was a break in in the neighborhood. They asked for my ID and I said no. One LEO insisted I had to even when detained. I told him no, get a supervisor. The sad thing is his buddy knew the whole time I was right and most likely this guy. While we are waiting for the supervisor they tried to "chit chat" with me. One does not have to have been to SERE school to recognize an interrogation.

    One guy asked "so, where do you start your runs from?" "Where are you running to?" "What time did you start your run this morning". I knew what they were doing, trying to establish whereabouts for more "ammo".

    That is why I do not answer questions.

    Again, I have ZERO respect for people that abuse or break the law.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array Psycho41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Yep, If you are carrying a gun you have to ID yourself.
    Says who? There have been numerous court cases where it has been decided that a person carrying a firearm where it is legal to do so (absent any other criteria for a crime) is not justification for detaining someone. Here is one:

    https://reason.com/2017/05/12/carryi...tify-detentio/
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    If your face is not in a facial recognition system, how would you imagine they have anything to compare your face to?



    In reading, it is wise to also note subsections (b), (c), and (d). Most people just stop at (a) and say "ahaa."
    I guess you have not read this thread yet

    New facial recognition software crime stopper or end of privacy?

    And I already address the "ahaa" comment.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    If you'll allow my to put on my Tinfoil hat for a second, if a photograph of you exists anywhere on the Internet you're in a database somewhere. Facebeast runs their facial recognition software on any photo that gets uploaded. I used to use a photo of Red Forman (That 70s Show) as my avatar. After a while everytime anyone who had any connection with me posted a picture of Red Forman on Facebeast I got notified that someone was using a picture of me.



    I was fingerprinted when I joined the Army, later I was required to submit a blood sample for the DNA database.

    I was fingerprinted when I went to work in a group home for kids.

    I was fingerprinted when I became security guard

    I was fingerprinted when I got my CHP and every time I renew it.

    I was fingerprinted when I volunteered for the security team at my church.

    Just because you're in the system doesn't make you a criminal

    Depends on which system......
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  8. #38
    Member Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Depends on which system......
    I am not sure if I should give you a "like" for that or not..oh what the heck

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I agree, Law Enforcement is not the enemy. I have the highest respect for LEO's and anyone that follows the law. I have ZERO respect for anyone that lies to me or tries to use their position of authority in an inappropriate or unlawful manner.

    Let me recap why I am passionate about this (and I did give a brief description before in another thread):

    I was running one day and two LEO stopped me. There was a break in in the neighborhood. They asked for my ID and I said no. One LEO insisted I had to even when detained. I told him no, get a supervisor. The sad thing is his buddy knew the whole time I was right and most likely this guy. While we are waiting for the supervisor they tried to "chit chat" with me. One does not have to have been to SERE school to recognize an interrogation.

    One guy asked "so, where do you start your runs from?" "Where are you running to?" "What time did you start your run this morning". I knew what they were doing, trying to establish whereabouts for more "ammo".

    That is why I do not answer questions.

    Again, I have ZERO respect for people that abuse or break the law.
    Or to rule you out. You have a huge chip on your shoulder, by all appearances.
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho41 View Post
    Says who? There have been numerous court cases where it has been decided that a person carrying a firearm where it is legal to do so (absent any other criteria for a crime) is not justification for detaining someone. Here is one:

    https://reason.com/2017/05/12/carryi...tify-detentio/
    OK, I am not going thru all 50 states laws. How do you prove you are legal age to carry a gun without ID?
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    A man has got to know his limitations.

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  11. #41
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    I surely hope there is a difference between the "Our facial recognition system says that man is Oldvet so we need to stop and ID him" (since they already know my ID) and the "Our facial recognition system says that man is Oldvet, wanted in 48 states for various felonies, so we have cause to stop and ID him."

    Otherwise, it's just more privacy abuse.
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  12. #42
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho41 View Post
    I think this discussion has gone sideways regarding the whole "stop and ID" issue. So, can we all agree that some estates are Stop and ID and others are not? Plus, even in Stop and ID states, there is a requirement that the police have cause to detain the person in the first place.

    So, the question is, would using lasers to identify people based on their heartbeat be considered contrary to a persons right to not identify themselves. Well, using facial recognition is not considered a violation of that right because there is no expectation of privacy when in public. So, using a person "face" for identification (to my knowledge) has not been ruled a violation of citizens' rights. But, using a laser to identify someone is definitely a new wrinkle. While they may be in public, their heartbeat is "concealed" much like the ID in their wallet is concealed. If there was technology to "read" a persons ID within their clothing or wallet I would think it would go against the whole basis of the right to not IDing. The fact that there isn't "yet" a database of everyone's heartbeat doesn't mean squat. The government has unlimited resources and could easily start compiling such a database.
    They could...they could also collect every single scrap of information ever typed into the internet, spoken and typed on every cellphone, said on TV, on and on. The trick would be adding these impossibly large databases and the thousands of people needed to use them without breaking the bank.

    For example, you have to provide ID at many government offices (e.g. DMV) where they could implement scanners and match up the heartbeats to individuals. So, my opinion, is that the use of such technology could be deemed unconstitutional because one's heartbeat is not something that is considered "exposed" while in public.
    The technology, per se, is new. The technique...the use of lasers is not. Your heartbeat, name, birth date, place of residence, almost everything but your appearance is already "hidden" from plain sight. The ability of government to know that data is a long established legal reality. However the government cannot collect fingerprints, photographs, and other information for the whole population without permission.

    Plus, you add that detecting a person's heartbeat would also give away certain medical conditions, that is not a road I wish my government to go down.
    Ugh...no not medical information. It isn't that easy to diagnose a medical condition with anything less than an EKG. The device collects vibrations from a beating heart, not medically usable diagnostic information from the electrical activity of the heart.

    The bottom line is that at present, this technology is in the hands of the DOD - not civilians. I imagine the technique is rather a closely guarded secret.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

    "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." - Thomas Jefferson

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I am not sure if I should give you a "like" for that or not..oh what the heck
    It's quite easy. If you were printed on a RED card you have an FBI# and a record in the criminal data base. If you were printed on a BLUE card you are in the APPLICANT data base and if you were printed on the GREEN card it is used for civil submissions to the FBI for immigration for example.
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  14. #44
    Member Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Bob View Post
    Or to rule you out. You have a huge chip on your shoulder, by all appearances.
    You are seriously missing the point that they have a right to ask for ID. I am no way under the law required to give it. Period. The supervisor acknowledged that and my lawyer confirmed it, as well as dozens of cases.

    Let me ask you: For the police to demand I show ID, is that a legal request under that circumstance or not? It is a yes or no answer.

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    You are seriously missing the point that they have a right to ask for ID. I am no way under the law required to give it. Period. The supervisor acknowledged that and my lawyer confirmed it, as well as dozens of cases.

    Let me ask you: For the police to demand I show ID, is that a legal request under that circumstance or not? It is a yes or no answer.
    No, not missing the point at all. I told you right away that you do not need to produce ID. So where did this case go where they fingerprinted the guy. No more BS.

    Not in Texas.
    OldChap likes this.
    A man has got to know his limitations.

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