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OC'r shot first during..??

7K views 65 replies 32 participants last post by  kenboyles72 
#1 ·
Pardon me if this has been covered. I searched and didn't find anything.

After reading all the talk about an open carrier being the first to be targeted during a active crime I am curious.
I've googled it and I haven't found the multitudes of situations described.

I'm not talking about the "gun grab" from a careless or unaware person.
I'd like to read details about how the OC person was shot first. This is a serious question and I am interested in reading.
 
#4 ·
#3 ·
You can find stories if you look hard enough, but just like most gun-related arguments, it's very difficult to get solid statistics on things like this. And the statistics wouldn't matter much anyway because there is always an exception. 99% of the time you can be on one side or the other, either the prevention of crime or the victim. It only takes that 1% to change the game. My personal opinion is that if you're open carrying and someone comes in to rob a place for instance, if you're not noticed in the first few seconds, your job is to get out of sight if possible and not make yourself available to be the first one shot. In that situation however, if all of my past experiences matter one iota, a scout is going to notice you before the robbery ever goes down and the people involved may very well decide to go rob someplace else. It's very rare to not case a place for a few minutes before a move is made.
 
#9 ·
If this is the one that took place in Richmond, VA, the man was in the store when a robbery was developing. He managed to get out of the store but then turned around to go back in and was attacked and shot with his own sidearm. I think this is right.


OC'ers being targeted and shot is quite a rare event. Now in an active shooter or terrorist attack, my guess is that OC'ers would be deliberately taken out as soon as possible. But that's just a guess on my part. There could be a few other situations where an OC'er might draw fire when his sidearm is seen. But then, even CC'ers are in danger if they try to get to their weapon. A crap shoot.

I OC'd on a daily basis for 7 1/2 years and never had any problems or perceived threats. I no longer do this, except when in a vehicle to have quicker and easier access to my sidearm. I have gone nearly total concealed carry since early 2015.
 
#14 ·
Like Dave909 said, BG's are gonna case a place (most likely). Don't give 'em too much credit though. BG's are weak opportunistic people, hence their name "Bad Guys". Just be smart about it. There are a lot of "heros" pushin up daisies. Don't try and be "Wyatt Earp"
 
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#15 ·
For the record, if you're scoring at home, that's officially a "Bruce Willis" reference yesterday and a "Wyatt Earp" reference today....and it's only Thursday.:smile:
 
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#22 ·
No one can definitively say whether or not the OCer would be targeted first. Its strictly situation dependent. Are the gunmen professionals or armatures will make a difference, as will numerous other factors. Yes, LEO's appear to be targeted more often, but there are more of them than civilian OCer's and they would be a obvious target of opportunity. We have little to no data to examine, one way or another.
 
#46 ·
I am with you LimaCharlie.

To me part of situational awareness is thinking like a BG and then reacting accordingly. For better or worse I find this easy to do. Not second nature per se, but close to it.

For instance, if I am a BG looking to pull off a robbery I scope out the situation and gauge my chances of success. If I see someone OC'ing at my crime scene there are two choices to make: Don't do the deed and choose an easier target; or immediately neutralize the OC'er and proceed.

That's one of the reasons I prefer CC'ing. I want a tactical advantage in any confrontation especially in those involving potential violence.
 
#25 ·
Indont know how often people are targeted for OC, I know it has happened. I remember one idiot who had his unloaded OC gun stolen from him when he was robbed. There have also been criminals that have said in interviews that if they see a gun, that’s automatic no-go.
 
#26 ·
If someone were to say that using an umbrella as a parachute would likely yield catastrophic results, I wouldn't need empirical data or GOOGLE to reasonably prove the assertion. People often talk about how rare it is that an OCer is targeted. What is rare is the known circumstances when a OCer was found to have been in the presence of a violent predatory criminal at the scene of a potential crime. OCing is a fringe activity to begin with and I live in an opencarry State. If you take a fringe behavior, apply it to fringe circumstances and expect to find a case study... you will probably end up disappointed. Its all a matter of plain ole common sense which is seemingly ignored by a good number of people who simply like how OC makes them feel about themselves. That's my take on it.
 
#27 ·
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#28 ·
"according to KPTV.

William Coleman, 21, told police that he bought a handgun on Friday and was carrying it around with his cousin. At around 2 a.m. Saturday, another man approached him and asked for a cigarette. The pair talked about Coleman’s handgun before the suspect pulled his own “semi-automatic, black” gun from his waistband and said, “I like your gun, give it to me.”"

Reading this brief article IMHO he was setting himself up to be robbed whether he was open carrying or not. This occurred as and his cousin were approached at 2am by someone bumming a smoke. His mistake was engaging in a conversation with the BG instead of replying nope and continuing to walk off while keeping an eye on the BG, possibly even placing a barrier between themselves and the BG by crossing the street at an angle as they walked past. Since the BG had a gun in his waistband it would seem he already had the intent to commit a crime and for some reason sensed they would make an easy mark.

Situational awareness is important at all times, even more so on Fridays and Saturdays when out in the early morning hours. Even the BG's know that's when the easy targets are out. Anytime anyone wants to stop you and distract you by talking about that neat cell phone your holding or any other valuable in view it should raise your situational awareness. Whether CC'ing or OC'ing it's always important to be aware of what's going on around you to ensure you're not creating your own nightmare.
 
#32 ·
Man robbed of gun he was openly carrying- Newport News Va


Louisiana man attempts to steal gun openly carried


Open Carrier attacked in wal-mart


Man Practicing open carry robbed of gun- Gresham Oregon


Student robbed of openly carried firearm


Man stalked and attacked LEO for his openly carried firearm


Man Openly carrying his gun robbed at gunpoint


Article- Perils of Open Carry


Man robbed of his gun at E.C gas station


Open Carry Gun Owner Robbed of brand new gun


Open Carry enthusiast robbed at gunpoint.


Man Proudly “open carrying” new pistol is robbed of it


Open carry individual robbed at gunpoint - Milwaukee

Man has gun stolen from holster

Clueless open carrier robbed of his gun -AZ McDonalds

Man armed with Bat attacks man Open Carrying

Oregon is a constitutional open carry state, but allows local government to regulate it. This happened in Multnomah County (Portland Metro) where it is illegal to open carry a loaded gun. You can open carry it unloaded. This guy was not open carrying, he brought the gun in the box and was showing the unloaded .22 to his cousin in a bad area of town at 2:00 am while setting on the street.
 
#30 ·
Man robbed of gun he was openly carrying- Newport News Va


Louisiana man attempts to steal gun openly carried


Open Carrier attacked in wal-mart


Man Practicing open carry robbed of gun- Gresham Oregon


Student robbed of openly carried firearm


Man stalked and attacked LEO for his openly carried firearm


Man Openly carrying his gun robbed at gunpoint


Article- Perils of Open Carry


Man robbed of his gun at E.C gas station


Open Carry Gun Owner Robbed of brand new gun


Open Carry enthusiast robbed at gunpoint.


Man Proudly “open carrying” new pistol is robbed of it


Open carry individual robbed at gunpoint - Milwaukee

Man has gun stolen from holster

Clueless open carrier robbed of his gun -AZ McDonalds

Man armed with Bat attacks man Open Carrying
 
#31 ·
If they want my open carried gun, they have to take it by force. If they want my concealed carry gun, they'll have to take it by force. If they want my wallet, they'll have to take it by force. If they want the truck, they'll have to take it by force.

If they take the openly carried belt gun by force, they'll have to get shot with the backup that's concealed. Best advice is for the BG to just walk up and shoot me in the back of the head, then he can have anything he likes. However, that's about as unlikely to happen as being struck by lightening, maybe even less than likely.

Playing the odds? What's the chances of some turd shooting me while playing cards with my back to the saloon entrance? Yup, it's happened, but what are the odds vs other odds of being taken out while enjoying any activity?

Slim and none seems about right doesn't it? :scratchchin:
 
#33 ·
Best advice is for the BG to just walk up and shoot me in the back of the head, then he can have anything he likes. However, that's about as unlikely to happen as being struck by lightening, maybe even less than likely.
That is the way I would do it if you (metaphorically speaking) had something I really wanted, maybe not shoot you, but take you out by ambush.
 
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#42 ·
Since there are many jurisdictions in which LEOs are the only persons legally allowed to carry openly, disqualifying examples of them being shot over their guns hints of intellectual dishonesty. How many private citizens do you suppose OC in Massachusetts, where Officer Collier was killed?
 
#39 ·
In Texas we have had OC for over a year

I havent even seen anyone OC since that time. Not one..... NADA........ Its tough to report something that in North Texas, that almost no one does

HOWEVER:

What I HAVE seen is a large number of 30.06 and 30.07 signs in many NEW Places after this new AWESOME AND AMAZING new law came into effect

OC didnt give me ANY freedoms..... it sure as heck LIMITED the number of places that I could legally carry..........
 
#40 ·
There are several issues with getting a good answer to the OP's question:
  • The media does not report shooting issues consistently or clearly.
  • Thankfully, the number of incidences where this could have possibly occurred is relatively small.
  • If an OC'er has sufficient SA, their gun should be out almost immediately and the BG should be the one "shot first."
I am a big fan of the proper use of statistics, but even I recognize that not all issues in defensive carry can be laid to rest with statistics or anecdotes. And people here only seem to want to use stats and stories to prove what they want to prove and not to find the truth, which is always a failed methodology.

IMHO, the way to think about the "shoot first OC problem" is imagining how a criminal might think about, kind of like Sun Tzu's "know your enemy." If you are an armed robber, in the act, and you encounter an OC'er, what are you most likely to do?
  1. Ignore the OC'er and pretend he is not a factor?
  2. Run away at the sight of the OC'er's gun?
  3. Disarm the OC'er at gunpoint?
  4. Shoot the OC'er?
I suppose it depends on how ruthless you are and your appetite for risk v. reward. I can't imagine #1 would ever happen. #2 might happen if you truly never intended to hurt anyone and you can back out of the situation before committing. #3 takes up time and focuses your attention away from what you want, the score you are after. If you have already committed to the act and you are open to killing people, I think #4 might be a likely choice.

My issue with OC is that it works against one of Cooper's seven "Principles of Personal Defense," namely "Surprise." I figure, why give that up?
 
#45 ·
Given, there are no absolutes...
Through interviews of "professional" burglers, they avoid occupied homes. Yes, there are home invasion robberies (typically gang-related), but not nearly as many as the aforementioned burglaries.
The reason they gave? Less likely to get shot.
We will never know how many crimes were prevented by the (potential) criminal knowing there is an armed victim or bystander. They don't call the police or the press saying they were going to rob someone / some place, but the intended victim(s) had a gun.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
#47 ·
People who do not have experience dealing with violent predatory people will often times use themselves as a template. They may simply asks themselves.."what would I do'. Well, I will tell you that its simply not that easy. Common sense has very little to do with crime in general.. its not really about that at all. Violent predatory criminals are classified in way for a reason and its not for their propensity toward fleeing or surrendering to adversity.
 
#48 ·
The concrete jungle is no different than the jungles of africa.

Predators look at the weakest in the pack of potential prey for they are the easiest to take down.

A lion with claws doesn't move on another lion when it's showing it's own claws, it looks to the gazelle who has no visible claws or sharp canines that may injure it when they attack.

Openly carrying the claws lets predators decide whether they want to move on and take easier prey or chance being killed while attacking someone showing their own canines and claws
 
#49 ·
The concrete jungle is no different than the jungles of africa.

Predators look at the weakest in the pack of potential prey for they are the easiest to take down.

A lion with claws doesn't move on another lion when it's showing it's own claws, it looks to the gazelle who has no visible claws or sharp canines that may injure it when they attack.
Your analogies are interesting/entertaining but they do not address the complexities of real life. It is simply a nifty saying which happens to have some superficial truth. Those superficial truths do not address and are not reflective of -mental illness, drug addiction, other perceived dire circumstances, wickedness, indifference, intoxication, social pressure, gang influences, bravado and a whole host of other influences which are categorically unique to human beings. The concrete jungle is very different than the jungles of Africa, its simply a metaphor.

Most crime is unreasonable when you consider risk vs gain vs consequences, yet it is prevalent in all societies. Can it be said that criminals have tendencies when selecting victims of crime?.. sure. Are tendencies unyielding in the face happenstance and other universal forces?.. Nope! Crime is rarely about common sense and although strength is typically a better position than weakness, its not a guarantee of anything. In my experience, street-crime is typically more contingent upon time and location and less about the individual characteristic of the potential crime victim. When I say "more about", I am not suggesting that it is never specific, I just don't consider street-crime to fall into that category very often.
 
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