Open carry Holster Retention question - Page 7

Open carry Holster Retention question

This is a discussion on Open carry Holster Retention question within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TX expat I believe wholeheartedly in getting training. I also believe that carrying OC is, for most people, just asking for trouble. ...

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Thread: Open carry Holster Retention question

  1. #91
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    I believe wholeheartedly in getting training. I also believe that carrying OC is, for most people, just asking for trouble. They're not situationally aware, though they would probably tell you that they are and if they find themselves in that situation they're going to be completely outmatched by a counterpart who is almost assuredly better prepared than they are. I most certainly don't believe that a thing ever replaces a skill set and if you were to do a historical search of my posts you'd find that I've said that many, many times.

    So I don't disagree at all with your point, however I am a realist. Most people won't get any training at all past, perhaps, the state mandated license to carry class. Only a very small percentage of people will take even the most basic pistol combative class. Getting into anything that would even remotely prepare you for a gun grab is probably now such a small minority that it's measured in digits to the right of the decimal. A retention device isn't a magic pill, for sure, but it may buy even a complete novice a little extra time or possibly even stop the snatch completely, if the criminal is only prepared for an easy crime of opportunity.
    Unless you're spending a good bit of time studying everyone who is OC'ng or know them personally you really have no idea just how aware they are or aren't so that's an awfully big broad brush.

    I think there may be a lot of confusion between those who do OC vs those who are OC'ng as some sort of show off or protest.

    Without a doubt everyone who carries can always benefit from more training and I always encourage people to get trained to the highest level they can and work to maintain it.

    As for retention holsters the average person has no need for a level III duty holster but concealed or open it's pretty irresponsible in my mind for anyone to be carrying with the minimalist/quick draw type holsters that won't even keep a firearm secure should you stumble and fall or one that allows for it to be easily knocked out during normal activities.

    I'm a constitutional carry kind of guy so I don't want laws or regulations dictating to us as what qualifies as a lawful holster but the exercise of our right also comes with a level of responsibility to ensure that reasonable care is taken by each of us to keep our firearms secure.

  2. #92
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Sure, but a guy who is an opportunistic snatch and grabber doesn't have to be big or violent and as you know criminals, just like everyone else, come in all sizes and experience levels. Not every criminal REALLY wants an altercation.

    I've seen this exact type of thing play out with purses, cameras, etc. If they can't get it and literally be on their way before the victim has a chance to register what's happening, they leave empty handed rather than deal with any prolonged encounter. Of course it's not universal, nothing is, but the fight is most definitely not on just because the first attempt ends in failure on their part.
    I'd be willing to bet that as rare as snatch attempts are not one in ten that's willing to make the attempt is going to be willing to fight for it. Opportunistic predators don't want to risk their own lives even to grab a gun so even a minimal level of retention is going to be enough to deter them.

    Now if some hard core felon is desperate to get your gun that's a whole nuther world and the odds are they are going to take you down from behind before even making the attempt so no level of retention is going to stop them.

    Again, we're back to applying common sense, keeping aware of your surroundings and considering your environment when deciding what level of retention is necessary for your situation.

    There is no one however that would not benefit from some hands on retention training and we should all as instructors encourage students to get at least some minimal training on retention.
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  3. #93
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    Here is an old test of SA.

    Good example of how quickly one can develop tunnel vision looking for something specific and lose "the big picture".

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  5. #94
    Ex Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    I believe wholeheartedly in getting training. I also believe that carrying OC is, for most people, just asking for trouble. They're not situationally aware, though they would probably tell you that they are and if they find themselves in that situation they're going to be completely outmatched by a counterpart who is almost assuredly better prepared than they are. I most certainly don't believe that a thing ever replaces a skill set and if you were to do a historical search of my posts you'd find that I've said that many, many times.

    So I don't disagree at all with your point, however I am a realist. Most people won't get any training at all past, perhaps, the state mandated license to carry class. Only a very small percentage of people will take even the most basic pistol combative class. Getting into anything that would even remotely prepare you for a gun grab is probably now such a small minority that it's measured in digits to the right of the decimal. A retention device isn't a magic pill, for sure, but it may buy even a complete novice a little extra time or possibly even stop the snatch completely, if the criminal is only prepared for an easy crime of opportunity.
    Agree with WILD ROSE .

    Disagree with your assumption right at the start. I really don't often care what anti-open carry folks thinks..... they typically have no experience open carrying, and little clue what it is like in real life. They over-think hypotheticals ... way too much.... that never or rarely ever happen. Many conceal carriers have had their guns taken from them so it's not just about open carrying. I open carried or years .... and I'll go by my experience with it all that time. And 90% of the junk people spout about it, is just that.

    What I learned as well .... is many options and ways in close encounters where someone trying to take your gun, or jumping you when close , etc..... and it comes down to you or them .... are moves to get control of their head for at least a couple of seconds, many are quick moves, putting the gun to their head and pulling the trigger...... end the battle all in one quick move. Many other ways to just rip their jugular out. You aren't on the play ground at that point, it's life or death.... you or them. Choose ... it's not a game.... it's not hypothetical.

    I will do all I can, to be the survivor.
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  6. #95
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Agree with WILD ROSE .

    Disagree with your assumption right at the start. I really don't often care what anti-open carry folks thinks..... they typically have no experience open carrying, and little clue what it is like in real life. They over-think hypotheticals ... way too much.... that never or rarely ever happen. Many conceal carriers have had their guns taken from them so it's not just about open carrying. I open carried or years .... and I'll go by my experience with it all that time. And 90% of the junk people spout about it, is just that.

    What I learned as well .... is many options and ways in close encounters where someone trying to take your gun, or jumping you when close , etc..... and it comes down to you or them .... are moves to get control of their head for at least a couple of seconds, many are quick moves, putting the gun to their head and pulling the trigger...... end the battle all in one quick move. Many other ways to just rip their jugular out. You aren't on the play ground at that point, it's life or death.... you or them. Choose ... it's not a game.... it's not hypothetical.

    I will do all I can, to be the survivor.
    The moment someone lays hands on my firearm I have a lawful use of deadly force to prevent them from gaining control of it.

    We have no higher duty when carrying than to ensure the bad guys never get control of our weapon.

    Of course that simply starts with good situational awareness and not intentionally putting yourself in a position to be at risk.

    Don't go looking for trouble and the odds are you won't find it.

  7. #96
    Ex Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    Don't go looking for trouble and the odds are you won't find it.
    I don't think that's true, but whatever ...

  8. #97
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I don't think that's true, but whatever ...
    The statistics show it is completely true. Random attacks are very rare in this country. 80% of all crime is related to drugs and gangs and about 80% of the victims are themselves also engaged in or associating with those who are also engaged in criminal activity.

    It happens, but the odds are if you don't fall in the above groups you are very unlikely to be the victim of a violent crime. More often than not when a law abiding citizen ends up so involved it's usually a matter of "wrong place, wrong time" such as finding yourself present during the robbery of a convenience store or pawn shop, a literal one in a million random occurrence.

  9. #98
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    2016 crime stats show 386 violent crimes per 100K people. If 20% are not drug/gang related, that leave 77 per 100K or roughly 241K people experienced violent crime in 2016 that were not gang or drug related.

    241,000 people, that's roughly 4700 people a week or 662 people a day in 2016 numbers were a victim of violent crime not drug or gang related.

    THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE.
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  10. #99
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    That is a lot of people...I bet if you break it down to geographical locations they are concentrated to certain areas also.
    Areas that are well known to violent crime.
    AzQkr, msgt/ret and Secret Spuk like this.

  11. #100
    Ex Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    The statistics show it is completely true. Random attacks are very rare in this country. 80% of all crime is related to drugs and gangs and about 80% of the victims are themselves also engaged in or associating with those who are also engaged in criminal activity.

    It happens, but the odds are if you don't fall in the above groups you are very unlikely to be the victim of a violent crime. More often than not when a law abiding citizen ends up so involved it's usually a matter of "wrong place, wrong time" such as finding yourself present during the robbery of a convenience store or pawn shop, a literal one in a million random occurrence.
    Depends upon where you are talking about, and as a country or for our purposes, don't believe it. Not here to debate it and when you throw out any stats.... I will always look at who came up with them, how, sources, etc. But, whatever it is, all the dead bodies I saw were not druggies and gang bangers , although gang bangers or druggies wanting money for drugs may have killed some of them. Don't understand your need to convince, you have your opinion, I have mine.

    I voiced my opinion ... and that's my opinion .... and I have seen a lot of stats, and none I've seen indicate that.

  12. #101
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Depends upon where you are talking about, and as a country or for our purposes, don't believe it. Not here to debate it and when you throw out any stats.... I will always look at who came up with them, how, sources, etc. But, whatever it is, all the dead bodies I saw were not druggies and gang bangers , although gang bangers or druggies wanting money for drugs may have killed some of them. Don't understand your need to convince, you have your opinion, I have mine.

    I voiced my opinion ... and that's my opinion .... and I have seen a lot of stats, and none I've seen indicate that.
    Who besides yourself said anything about "all"? For communication to be meaningful it's helpful to respond to what was actually said rather than what you imagine.

    https://cis.org/Feere/Gangs-responsible-80-crime

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/co...cide_are_gang/

    Approximately "1 million gang members belonging to more than 20,000 gangs were criminally active within all 50 states and the District of Columbia as of September 2008," the report says.

    "Criminal gangs commit as much as 80 percent of the crime in many communities, according to law enforcement officials throughout the nation," the report notes as part of its key findings. "Typical gang-related crimes include alien smuggling, armed robbery, assault, auto theft, drug trafficking, extortion, fraud, home invasions, identity theft, murder and weapons trafficking."

    A copy of the threat assessment, prepared by the Justice Department's National Gang Intelligence Center and the National Drug Intelligence Center, was obtained by ABC News from U.S. law enforcement officials on Friday.
    https://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCri...6773423&page=1

    The numbers come directly from the CDC and FBI.

  13. #102
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    2016 crime stats show 386 violent crimes per 100K people. If 20% are not drug/gang related, that leave 77 per 100K or roughly 241K people experienced violent crime in 2016 that were not gang or drug related.

    241,000 people, that's roughly 4700 people a week or 662 people a day in 2016 numbers were a victim of violent crime not drug or gang related.

    THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE.
    241,000/330,000,000=?

  14. #103
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornhusker95 View Post
    That is a lot of people...I bet if you break it down to geographical locations they are concentrated to certain areas also.
    Areas that are well known to violent crime.
    I can't remember the study but a few years back I read one citing that something like 75% of all violent crime in the US being associated with the 100 zip codes with the highest population.

  15. #104
    Ex Member Array AzQkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
    241,000/330,000,000=?
    330,000,000 / 100K = 3300 x 77 [ 20% of the 386 per 100K ]= 254,100 people in one year. 254K/12=21,175 per month/4=5293 per week/7=756 per day.
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  16. #105
    Ex Member Array WildRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    330,000,000 / 100K = 3300 x 77 [ 20% of the 386 per 100K ]= 254,100 people in one year. 254K/12=21,175 per month/4=5293 per week/7=756 per day.
    Out of 330,000,000 people.

    Hence unless you are associated with gangs and drugs your odds of becoming the victim of a violent crime today are extremely low.

    The violent crime rate in the US today is about 40% of what it was at it's peak in the 90's and on par with that of the mid 1960's.

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