May Have to Start OCing - Page 6

May Have to Start OCing

This is a discussion on May Have to Start OCing within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Bikenut Never said I can't google the titles. I am saying it is not up to me or anyone else to go ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Never said I can't google the titles. I am saying it is not up to me or anyone else to go chasing down substantiation of what other people say. That is the responsibility of those who said it.

    Quite frankly... at least in my opinion... the words of those who are unwilling to provide links and/or even cites when asked, you know... stand behind what they said... and expect others to do the leg work, lack credibility.
    You can’t be serious.....
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  2. #77
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavygravy View Post
    Divert and redirect. It's a common strategy.

    I'll repeat -- Now how about you providing some links that prove OC in public places known for recent mass shootings (while filming the incidents) to "prove a point" actually accomplish anything positive? Did you miss that one, or are you saying "... the words of those who are unwilling to provide links and/or even cites when asked, you know... stand behind what they said... and expect others to do the leg work, lack credibility. "
    Sure...

    https://miopencarry.org/

    But that doesn't address the mass shootings thing.... because I freely admit I don't have any first hand knowledge of that particular incident. But I have seen how the gun community joined the anti gunners in denouncing that incident.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

  3. #78
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Never said I can't google the titles. I am saying it is not up to me or anyone else to go chasing down substantiation of what other people say. That is the responsibility of those who said it.

    Quite frankly... at least in my opinion... the words of those who are unwilling to provide links and/or even cites when asked, you know... stand behind what they said... and expect others to do the leg work, lack credibility.
    You can’t be serious.....
    Think what you wish. I believe I have made my position on this matter quite clear.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

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  5. #79
    VIP Member Array G-man*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Think what you wish. I believe I have made my position on this matter quite clear.
    Its not your position, Hell, I OC at times.
    It is your failure to acknowledge that there are inherent risks associated with the practice that I find remarkably naive.
    " Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight.”
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  6. #80
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Think what you wish. I believe I have made my position on this matter quite clear.
    Its not your position, Hell, I OC at times.
    It is your failure to acknowledge that there are inherent risks associated with the practice that I find remarkably naive.
    Please point out where I said there weren't risks with open carry?
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

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  8. #82
    Senior Member Array Bikenut's Avatar
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    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man* View Post
    Its not your position, Hell, I OC at times.
    It is your failure to acknowledge that there are inherent risks associated with the practice that I find remarkably naive.
    Well stated

    I probably OC less than anyone but like G-man stated, I also OC from time to time. I have probably Openly Carried at least 3 times out of roughly 250 days carrying this year. I know that's not much but I have no real affinity toward carrying in either mode or carrying one at all. I simply acknowledge the inherent risks and choose a method that I feel offers me the most advantages in the most varying of circumstances. Its not about politics, ego, attention or ideology. My decision to CC is simply about practical tactics and strategics. I am not a blind follower but in this regard I fall in lock step with the near universal consensus regarding which mode of carry is best for the armed citizen. There are many things that I may have an opportunity to exploit in my favor if my weapon is concealed when or if perilous circumstances suddenly manifest. There are also many conditions and difficulties that I can easily avoid if I am not actively holding myself out as the only obviously armed person in the room.

    If others are willing to give those things up in the name of something I suspect is akin to feelgood-ism.. they can but I wont. Everyone has their choices to make and I aint mad at anyone who chooses something different than me. I simply strive to keep the discussion about it honest

    In the spirit of that honesty I will say that if a person is likely perceived as weak without a visible gun, they will likely be perceived as weak even with a gun. Its not often the gun that makes a person look weak or strong, its about the 20-30 other nuances that predatory individuals readily discern about other humans.
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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    yet the majority of people who have experience dealing with danger, criminals and adverse conditions while armed, somehow feel differently than you. What you are saying here is completely contrary to any training I have ever had and it also conflicts with my personal experience dealing with violent predatory criminals.

    A Thousand years ago.. scholars wrote of the tactical and strategic benefits of secreted weapons. Armed defenders who concealed their weapons actually curtailed bandits which preyed on merchant caravans because they could no longer tell which were protected and which were not. " The potential for secreted weapons held by the steadfast defender gives pause to the attacker who can no longer judge the intended victim by his outward appearance"

    So baguys don't go after guns head on? A few News article titles from the interweb:

    Man walking down State Street gets holstered weapon stolen
    Gun stolen from open carrier at Walmart 12-2017
    Man robbed of gun he was openly carrying- Newport News Va
    Open carrier shot at by passing car
    Louisiana man attempts to steal gun openly carried
    Foodlion guard assassinated for his gun
    Open Carrier attacked in wal-mart
    Man Practicing open carry robbed of gun- Gresham Oregon
    Open carriers gun stolen off his hip
    Student robbed of openly carried firearm
    Man stalked and attacked LEO for his openly carried firearm
    Man Openly carrying his gun robbed at gunpoint
    Man robbed of his gun at E.C gas station
    Open Carry Gun Owner Robbed of brand new gun
    Teens relieve dog walker of openly carried gun
    Open Carry enthusiast robbed at gunpoint.
    Man Proudly “open carrying” new pistol is robbed of it
    Open carry individual robbed at gunpoint – Milwaukee
    Medford Police responded assault and robbery , man reportedly followed to bathroom punched in face,.. firearm taken.
    Man steals NYPD officers weapon, shoots deli clerk.
    Man has shotgun ripped from his hands while investigating noise outside his home
    Chatty smoker steals gun from open carrier
    Man buying smokes gets openly carried firearm and holster taken

    I forgot these:

    Open carry gun owner has gun stolen from behind
    Teen steals gun from Wichita mans holster
    Whitehall man loses gun and lotter tickets in scuffle outside store
    61 year old man shoots teen trying to steal his gun
    Open carrier attacked; kills assailant
    Motorist robbed of her own gun
    Father grabs loaded gun from Policeman
    2 armed security guards robbed of their firearms
    Man Tazes Deputy, grabs his gun
    "Pink Manther" disarms guard robs bank
    Whether you have three or thirty anecdotal pieces of evidence matters not.

    How many times a day does someone open carry? Let's do the math:

    Roughly120 times in our medium city.
    Times 5 medium cities per state
    Time 50 states
    Times 365 days per year
    Times 10 years per decade

    Result: 109.5 million OCs per decade.

    Let's examine your 33 reported incidents over the last decade in light of 109.5 million OCs over the last decade:

    0.00003014%

    That's one OC gun grab incident per 3,318,182 OC events.

    Now I ask you, Fizban: How many times have those who CC been the victim of violent crime over the last decade?

    Given the roughly 1.4 million violent crimes a year (14 million per decade), I very seriously doubt the number is less than 33. In fact, it's at least two, if not three orders of magnitude higher by sheer virtue of the number of people CCing and the number of violent crimes per decade.

    Ergo, go collect your onesies, twosies, and thirty-threesies all day long. They're about as meaningful as a tear in barrel. And actually, I calculated that, too. 3,318,182 is roughly 43.8 U.S. gallons.

    I'll have to be honest, Fizban. I like my quantitative analysis better than your pro-CC agenda-driven advertising.
    Would you enjoy spending significant amounts of conducting research and conveying carefully worded discourse when others trample it under their feet, even to the point of deleting entire threads? Of course not. Me either. Matthew 7:6

  11. #85
    Distinguished Member Array Rabbit212's Avatar
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    So what happened in the end RedSafety did you end up OC when that pesky neighbor was around?? See how I smoothly guided this drifting vessel back on course?? Heck yeah!! Glock 19 with a tactical backflip for me y'all!!!!
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  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Whether you have three or thirty anecdotal pieces of evidence matters not.

    How many times a day does someone open carry? Let's do the math:

    Roughly120 times in our medium city.
    Times 5 medium cities per state
    Time 50 states
    Times 365 days per year
    Times 10 years per decade

    Result: 109.5 million OCs per decade.

    Let's examine your 33 reported incidents over the last decade in light of 109.5 million OCs over the last decade:

    0.00003014%

    That's one OC gun grab incident per 3,318,182 OC events.

    Now I ask you, Fizban: How many times have those who CC been the victim of violent crime over the last decade?

    Given the roughly 1.4 million violent crimes a year (14 million per decade), I very seriously doubt the number is less than 33. In fact, it's at least two, if not three orders of magnitude higher by sheer virtue of the number of people CCing and the number of violent crimes per decade.

    Ergo, go collect your onesies, twosies, and thirty-threesies all day long. They're about as meaningful as a tear in barrel. And actually, I calculated that, too. 3,318,182 is roughly 43.8 U.S. gallons.

    I'll have to be honest, Fizban. I like my quantitative analysis better than your pro-CC agenda-driven advertising.
    Here we go again.
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  13. #87
    VIP Member Array Fizban's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Whether you have three or thirty anecdotal pieces of evidence matters not.

    How many times a day does someone open carry? Let's do the math:

    Roughly120 times in our medium city.
    Times 5 medium cities per state
    Time 50 states
    Times 365 days per year
    Times 10 years per decade

    Result: 109.5 million OCs per decade.

    Let's examine your 33 reported incidents over the last decade in light of 109.5 million OCs over the last decade:

    0.00003014%

    That's one OC gun grab incident per 3,318,182 OC events.

    Now I ask you, Fizban: How many times have those who CC been the victim of violent crime over the last decade?

    Given the roughly 1.4 million violent crimes a year (14 million per decade), I very seriously doubt the number is less than 33. In fact, it's at least two, if not three orders of magnitude higher by sheer virtue of the number of people CCing and the number of violent crimes per decade.

    Ergo, go collect your onesies, twosies, and thirty-threesies all day long. They're about as meaningful as a tear in barrel. And actually, I calculated that, too. 3,318,182 is roughly 43.8 U.S. gallons.

    I'll have to be honest, Fizban. I like my quantitative analysis better than your pro-CC agenda-driven advertising.
    ::clap clap:: Allow me to highlight your error

    My 60 seconds of research to simply find a couple of examples for the purpose discussion is not in any way a thoughtful measurement toward the larger point. I am confident that it would not matter if I found 30, 3000, or 300,000. I have had this same discussion enough times to accept that no manner or evidence is going to change the mind of those who are steadfast proponents of OC. I offer my opinions and experiences for those who may be in their initial steps of considering a primary mode of carry.

    OC is very much a fringe mode of carry even in States which allow it. There are many good reasons that most trained and experienced people are not proponent of OC. It has nothing much to do with politics or whether or not someone supports the 2nd amendment. I have heard many claim that its some sort of vast conspiracy against gun rights but in my opinion, that line of thinking is tinfoil hat logic. Most proponents of CC simply made their decision based on near universally accepted tactics and strategics regarding such things.

    By the way.. the sparse example that I offered for simple discussion happened to saunter into a set of conditions that perhaps your 109.5 did not. So let me ask you.. how many of those 109.5 million OCers that you proclaim are running around the nation, how many have found themselves in close proximity to bad people set out to do bad things? We are not talking about what is likely to occur when good people never find themselves in such dangerous circumstances, we are talking about what we expect to happen when they do. Unless you are saying that in all 109 millions circumstances that each and every one of those OCers experienced a very specific level of danger but experienced no ill effects, your numbers don't mean much.

    I am not trying to change your mind.. I wish you all the best. I simply stand buy the near universal consensus of trained and experienced people mainly because it happens to mirror my own training, knowledge and experiences dealing with criminals. It doesn't mean I am right
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  14. #88
    Distinguished Member Array Rabbit212's Avatar
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    Come on Red Safety enlighten us please!!!!
    Wow never thought I would be saying that.
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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SatCong View Post
    Here we go again.
    I see. So your dogma, agenda, whatever, trumps statistically verifiable reality.

    Good luck with that.
    Would you enjoy spending significant amounts of conducting research and conveying carefully worded discourse when others trample it under their feet, even to the point of deleting entire threads? Of course not. Me either. Matthew 7:6

  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Whether you have three or thirty anecdotal pieces of evidence matters not.

    How many times a day does someone open carry? Let's do the math:

    Roughly120 times in our medium city.
    Times 5 medium cities per state
    Time 50 states
    Times 365 days per year
    Times 10 years per decade

    Result: 109.5 million OCs per decade.

    Let's examine your 33 reported incidents over the last decade in light of 109.5 million OCs over the last decade:

    0.00003014%

    That's one OC gun grab incident per 3,318,182 OC events.

    Now I ask you, Fizban: How many times have those who CC been the victim of violent crime over the last decade?

    Given the roughly 1.4 million violent crimes a year (14 million per decade), I very seriously doubt the number is less than 33. In fact, it's at least two, if not three orders of magnitude higher by sheer virtue of the number of people CCing and the number of violent crimes per decade.

    Ergo, go collect your onesies, twosies, and thirty-threesies all day long. They're about as meaningful as a tear in barrel. And actually, I calculated that, too. 3,318,182 is roughly 43.8 U.S. gallons.

    I'll have to be honest, Fizban. I like my quantitative analysis better than your pro-CC agenda-driven advertising.
    Your statistics are actually assumptions based on numbers not in evidence. In fact, those numbers are more like outright fabrications.
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