Expansion of Red Flag laws will lead to abuses. - Page 2

Expansion of Red Flag laws will lead to abuses.

This is a discussion on Expansion of Red Flag laws will lead to abuses. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Can we evict California from the USA?? No, really! Nothing good has come out of California for a long time. It is a breeding ground ...

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Thread: Expansion of Red Flag laws will lead to abuses.

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array OneGunTX's Avatar
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    Can we evict California from the USA?? No, really! Nothing good has come out of California for a long time. It is a breeding ground of ultra-rich stupidity, enabling addictions, protecting illegals, and all at the expense of ordinary citizens who are trying to get by in life.
    The Old Anglo likes this.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackJack View Post
    So, now every time someone is fired or layed off, the employer will be able to report them as a possible danger and have have their guns seized.
    If the employer is willing to sign an affidavit supporting
    clear and convincing evidence that the subject of the petition, or a person subject to an ex parte gun violence restraining order, as applicable, poses a significant danger of personal injury to himself, herself, or another by having in his or her custody or control, owning, purchasing, possessing, or receiving a firearm, and that the order is necessary to prevent personal injury to himself, herself, or another, as specified.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon10125 View Post
    “If you can just stop people at that point where they try to get a gun they can't become mass shooters," she said

    Did anyone else notice how well it worked with that video game shooter?
    Not sure of your logic. VG shooter bought the gun legally in MD. So tough gun laws there didn't stop him. So how do you get a gun from someone who shouldn't have a gun? Waiting for him to go ballistic isn't wise.

    We talk about "improving mental health" and such pie in the sky. Sacrificing liberty for "some perceived security" is a flawed argument because the court considers each case separately. A simple case-by-case examination seems due process enough for me for what's at stake without infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

    In CA, crazy nanny laws are the norm. And his heart's probably in the wrong place, yet, I agree with AB2888 sponsor, Ting,
    "I’ve never said this is a panacea, but it’s just one of many solutions we have to offer"..... The assemblyman said his bill would provide additional opportunities to catch troubling behavior.
    So this Californian didn't oppose it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    Agreed. Some support for that is that the CA law only makes it a misdemeanor for someone to intentionally falsely accuse someone. So you fraudulently violate someone's 1A and 4A rights, with premeditated ill intent, you get their guns taken away and make them prohibited persons for getting any new guns and your jeopardy for that is a misdemeanor? Not to mention the fact that misdemeanor is going to be very difficult to prove and the CA cops would not make it any kind of priority to investigate.

    Another issue with these laws relates to something I read that said many local LE departments across the country barely have enough secure storage space for guns they have to retain as evidence in criminal trials. Red flag laws are likely to create significant additional expense for LE departments and increase the risk of guns being stolen.
    Space and cost may impinge the state's enforcement. That is something to research. And, for purpose of research, it would be more assuring if the bill or some other law that may or may not already exists were to require statistics of judgments in favor of GVRO's, etc.

    And the court has to consider evidence so false accusations have to be somewhat elaborate. It's not like this bill is much different than existing law for the vast majority.

    Getting back to bad people with guns, the law needs tools to separate the two for keeping the peace. GFZ's, etc. don't work. It's a just way toward ensuring domestic tranquility.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array BigJon10125's Avatar
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    My logic is pointing out that the tough laws did what they do, nothing.
    BigJon


    "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" ~ Mark Twain

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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon10125 View Post
    My logic is pointing out that the tough laws did what they do, nothing.
    Well, not every tough law is bad, right?
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frgood View Post
    "It would allow co-workers and school personnel to petition a court to temporarily remove guns from someone they believe poses a danger," reads to me as a result of a 'state of fear' mindset.
    For gun owners, that state of fear is real. I attended a panel discussion at the VA statehouse led by Mark Kelly and Gabby Giffords. They were proposing a similar law in VA. They were clear that is how the CA law is working now with immediate family and how they wanted laws like that to work. The only new news here is that the current proposal is expanding the field of petitioners from immediate family, to co-workers and school personnel. The Mark and Gabby show would eventually like it expanded to any "close acquaintance." That could include ex-girlfriends, disgruntled neighbors, etc. IMHO, this is a justified "state of fear" for gun owners.
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  7. #21
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    jmf, I agree with your sentiment. I would like to consider expanding the thought that those who proposed and those who vote for such nonsense are being driven by fear. In addition, those who will abuse that law are those prone who become fearful to easily.
    Similarly, Your point of expanding the scope of that law is a point of fear for myself as the result, on a large scale, is the social acceptance that even the most trivial concern will be dealt with in a manner that will cause a great deal of pain and grief for those targeted. While not in the exact same vein, I am reminded of those that have had their lives ruined by false sexual misconduct charges.

    This is clearly the beginning of a slippery slope that that will lead to the absurd. Your point jmf552, I believe is the tip of a titanic iceberg and for this I fear not just as a gun owner, but as an American that strives for a best society.
    jmf552 and msgt/ret like this.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Sister's Avatar
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    Visited there one time in the mid 90’s, was real proud of the fact the fruit loops were put off by my Carolina ways. I smoked cigs back then, all Carolina folks smoked back then heck the high school had their own smoking section.

    I lit up and you would have thought I let rip a ripe one, they bolted but not before giving me a nasty look.

    Ever been proud to NOT fit in with the crowd somewhere?

    We have a bit of family on CWO’s side that still lives there, we have decided to not retire in any of the West coast states - gun laws in ALL of them getting bad.

    Dont know how CA gets by with all that they get by with,
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  9. #23
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    The fallacy of these laws, like all other gun control laws, is that they don't/can't actually prevent anything.

    So you swear out an affidavit, gun unit (aka JBTs) go and take a guy's guns and ammo.

    Do they also take his car or truck, his gas can, his knives and axes and machetes and ball bats and shovels and.... NOPE!


    Then there's the case that many will be able to have the order reversed (I've heard as many as 90% do, no verification of that handy). But at the expense of time from work, lawyer fees, public disgrace. And when the judge orders the guns returned, how many stories have you heard of police being slow to absolutely non-responsive. And the returned guns are damaged in one way or another from mishandling to poor storage conditions?
    OlCop likes this.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    @sdprof : I grok your avatar!

    I think the other fallacy is that if someone is intent on doing harm, they are going to make sure the cops don't find all their guns or they will get them on the street. I imagine we will see some shootings done by people who have already had their guns confiscated. But that will not deter the red flags fans.
    sdprof likes this.
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  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array The Old Anglo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGunTX View Post
    Can we evict California from the USA?? No, really! Nothing good has come out of California for a long time. It is a breeding ground of ultra-rich stupidity, enabling addictions, protecting illegals, and all at the expense of ordinary citizens who are trying to get by in life.
    Waiting for the "Big One" to break them all off into the Sea!. Goodbye Kommiefornia!.
    OneGunTX likes this.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Frodebro's Avatar
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    Maybe the rest of the country should just declare California a dangerous threat to all of us and have the whole damn place walled in.
    OneGunTX, OlCop and The Old Anglo like this.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array OlCop's Avatar
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    This will lead to a giant slippery slope. Now everyone can spy on their neighbors. I wouldn't live in California for anything in the world.
    “I won’t be wronged, I won’t be insulted, and I won’t be laid a hand on. I don’t do these things to other people and I require the same from them.” John Wayne - The Shootist

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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array sdprof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodebro View Post
    Maybe the rest of the country should just declare California a dangerous threat to all of us and have the whole damn place walled in.
    California labels almost everything in the world as a potential carcinogen.

    The rest of the country should label Commiefornia as a terrorist organization. It fits the definition - "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
    Frodebro likes this.
    ~~~~~
    The only common sense gun legislation was written about 229 years ago.

    I carry always not because I go places trouble is likely, but because trouble has a habit of not staying in its assigned zone.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by frgood View Post
    Additionally, Ting, the bill sponsors' quote of "This is about getting guns out of the hands of the wrong people," seems to be a mantra decried with the intent to end the debate. However, if one is to consider human nature with even the remotest of consideration, would find Ting's mantra to be ineffectual at best and naive at worse.
    How about getting lawmaking out of the hands of the wrong people?
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CG11 View Post
    They will never keep squeezing - know that and remember it come Election Day.
    Unfortuneatly, you'll never find a politician that can meet all of your needs.
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