Denver Trauma Surgeon: "This is our lane!" - Page 4

Denver Trauma Surgeon: "This is our lane!"

This is a discussion on Denver Trauma Surgeon: "This is our lane!" within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 1942bull OK, I am putting on my helmet and flack jacket on because I think I am about to undergo a barrage. ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1942bull View Post
    OK, I am putting on my helmet and flack jacket on because I think I am about to undergo a barrage.

    The Docsí opinions are based upon their professional mission. As stated in the web article they see part of their work as being trying to stop injuries from occurrring regardless of the method of injury. Now letís be understanding of that fact. If doctors did not care about causes there would not be a polio vaccine and many other preventive medicines. So the Docs had every right to express their opinions and findings, just as we do and the NRA did.

    The problem here is the NRA once again used the tactic of inciting its base by rejecting the Docs paper and chastising them for butting into something the NRA decided was not the Docs business. There are those who believe that the way to deal with disagreement is to intimidate, isolate, denigarate, etc, just like th NRA does. My view and method are different. I gain nothing but an enemy if I reject them out of hand and tell them they do not know what they are talking about, and also that they have no business talking about it. The NRAís polarization of gun foes only strengthens the foes. The Docs and the AMA are not going away. They have big bucks too. In fact if they team up with insurers who pay the bills for the surgeries and treatments from gun wounds they can crush the NRA. It is about time for the NRA to understand the process of dispute resolution and engage it it. If it ever does that, I will become a life memes instead of a non member.

    Ok, I am headed for the bunker.
    The way I see it is the Good Dr's have taken it upon themselves to prevent injury by putting restrictions on me and my guns that by the way have never shot anyone! And Ignore that the very few who are doing the most damage will continue to shoot others as a matter of their chosen occupation! They also ignore the most dangerous of the mentally ill because they don't want to be seen as the bad guy's that have to take away their rights. DR
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  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array SOS24's Avatar
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    Iím with @1942bull , Mike1956 and others who feel the NRA made a poor choice in their response.

    Rather than discounting the medical professional opinions as not in their lane, the NRA could have recognized their point of view, but then also challenged them by saying that their answer to car accidents isnít get rid of all cars, drownings isnít close all pools, opioid overdoses isnít stop prescribing opioids.

    The NRA could have taken the same tactic that some medical professionals who support the 2A have taken in response by saying that their lane should be advocating for people to get first aid and bleeding control training and carry medical gear to help people who get shot survive, in the same way they advocate for NARCON kits, lifeguard training and equipment, etc.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Consider all the injuries and deaths caused by drunk drivers, far more than those cause by accidental or criminal misuse of firearms. Why aren't these same doctors going after AAA and the automakers?

    Likewise, what law prevents a convicted DUI driver from owning a whole fleet of vehicles? Does anyone confiscate automobiles because they think an owner might be a risk to himself or others?

    The hypocrisy is overwhelming.

    Excellent rebuttal from physician and gun writer Dr. Will Dabbs here:
    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/t...ra-physicians/
    Then consider the amount of injuries and deaths caused by sober drivers, even way more than those caused by drunk drivers. Wonder how many people MADD mothers have killed by being stupid drivers? Of course those are just accidents, bet all those dead people are glad to know that.
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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Iím not moving any goalposts. The discussion is about the AMA. Unless you believe they are world renowned experts on everything concerning firearms, then they are fair game. Name a subject not related to medicine that the AMA spends itís members money on lobbying.

    And if you ask almost anyone who has ever spent much time working in a hospital about med errors, maybe you might want to rethink the possibilities.

    This subject has been discussed here before. I stated then what Iíll repeat now. Medicine is one of a lot of fields of science that is so complex that anyone who claims that mistakes are not made, and made relatively often, just isnít paying attention.

    People defend medicine by pointing out how many lives are saved compared to how many are lost. Sound familiar from discussions about guns? The point is that on the list of things that kill people, guns are almost at the bottom. Hospital issues affect far more people, as does disease. Starting at the bottom of the list with an issue you concede youíre not an expert in and citing studies youíve done, naturally draws laughter from experts in those fields.

    I donít expect anyone to take my word for it. Spend some time researching the subject. But lastly ask yourself what solution the AMA puts forth and I suspect youíll come to the right conclusion. Itís the same solution we hear all the time. Disarm all law-abiding Americans and youíll fix the gun problem. Really doc?
    Basic truth - if you are old and injured, recover at home - you have a better chance of survival because you're unlikely to a) catch a secondary infection or b) die from a med error.

    Physicians need to heal themselves and stop spouting off as experts on anything other than medicine.
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  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    IMHO free speech is a given. Maybe I misread some posts, or more likely didnít understand, but it seemed there was a sense that the NRA should have expected criticism for their comments and was somehow wrong for calling out the AMA. Iím sure they didnít expect the AMA to cave to their criticism and fully expected their response.

    IMHO the time is approaching when we will have to stand and be counted, or go down without so much as a whimper. I hope Iím wrong about that too.
    Responding to the thought-out, articulated position of a critic with an admonishment to just shut up, as the NRA did with the "stay in your lane" remark, is as dumb and ineffective as it gets. If we can do no better than that, you probably aren't wrong.
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Responding to the thought-out, articulated position of a critic with an admonishment to just shut up, as the NRA did with the "stay in your lane" remark, is as dumb and ineffective as it gets. If we can do no better than that, you probably aren't wrong.
    Are you absolutely sure you understand what "stay in your lane" means? I've heard that admonition from officers quite a few times. It does not mean, "Get out of the vehicle and never again attempt to drive." It does mean, "Stay in your lane" - the lane you should remain in unless you signal your intention to change lanes. Don't weave all over the road as you are continuing your journey to wherever it is you're going."

    When we dealt with a DUI (where the driver needed to go to jail and sober up), we never told them to "stay in your lane", we told them to, "Please step out of your car."

    In other words, a police officer making that remark says, in effect, "It is fine for you to continue, just do a better job of not weaving all over the road and you'll have no problem from me." I know words have lost all meaning today, but if I intended to remind someone that they were a maroon and should keep their mouth shut, I think I'd use a bit more pointed remark.

    If "stay in your lane" has multiple meanings in the local vernacular, how do you know which meaning was intended?

    Since it is useless to discuss semantics, maybe those who have an issue with the NRA should run for a position on the Board? I'm sure members of DC could do a better job defending the 2nd Amendment.
    Last edited by OldChap; November 18th, 2018 at 04:20 PM.
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  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Are you absolutely sure you understand what "stay in your lane" means? I've heard that admonition from officers quite a few times. It does not mean, "Get out of the vehicle and never again attempt to drive." It does mean, "Stay in your lane" - the lane you should remain in unless you signal your intention to change lanes. Don't weave all over the road as you are continuing your journey to wherever it is you're going."

    In other words, a police officer making that remark says, in effect, "It is fine for you to continue, just do a better job of not weaving all over the road and you'll have no problem from me." I know words have lost all meaning today, but if I intended to remind someone that they were a maroon and should keep their mouth shut, I think I'd use a bit more pointed remark.

    Since it is useless to discuss semantics, maybe those who have an issue with the NRA should run for a position on the Board.
    Good luck with that.

    I do understand what ultracrepidarianism means. Is that what the single-syllable words used in the NRA comment were intended to convey?
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Good luck with that.

    I do understand what ultracrepidarianism means. Is that what the single-syllable words used in the NRA comment were intended to convey?
    You tell me. I've only heard it used in the context I wrote. If you hear it used otherwise, then how do any of us know what the intention of the statement was?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    You tell me. I've only heard it used in the context I wrote. If you hear it used otherwise, then how do any of us know what the intention of the statement was?

    I took it to mean "shut up and mind your own business", "stay on your own side of the street", something along those lines. Perhaps if the NRA comment had been more clear and concise, folks wouldn't have to speculate on what was intended.
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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I took it to mean "shut up and mind your own business", "stay on your own side of the street", something along those lines. Perhaps if the NRA comment had been more clear and concise, folks wouldn't have to speculate on what was intended.
    Really? They were probably deliberately obtuse because if they wanted to be clear and concise they would have said, "Shut up. Stick to subjects where you have some expertise." You see why arguing semantics is useless?
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Really? They were probably deliberately obtuse because if they wanted to be clear and concise they would have said, "Shut up. Stick to subjects where you have some expertise." You see why arguing semantics is useless?
    Deliberately obtuse when speaking on behalf of millions of members?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    Iím not moving any goalposts. The discussion is about the AMA. Unless you believe they are world renowned experts on everything concerning firearms, then they are fair game. Name a subject not related to medicine that the AMA spends itís members money on lobbying.

    And if you ask almost anyone who has ever spent much time working in a hospital about med errors, maybe you might want to rethink the possibilities.

    This subject has been discussed here before. I stated then what Iíll repeat now. Medicine is one of a lot of fields of science that is so complex that anyone who claims that mistakes are not made, and made relatively often, just isnít paying attention.

    People defend medicine by pointing out how many lives are saved compared to how many are lost. Sound familiar from discussions about guns? The point is that on the list of things that kill people, guns are almost at the bottom. Hospital issues affect far more people, as does disease. Starting at the bottom of the list with an issue you concede youíre not an expert in and citing studies youíve done, naturally draws laughter from experts in those fields.

    I donít expect anyone to take my word for it. Spend some time researching the subject. But lastly ask yourself what solution the AMA puts forth and I suspect youíll come to the right conclusion. Itís the same solution we hear all the time. Disarm all law-abiding Americans and youíll fix the gun problem. Really doc?
    And if the true experts of violent death are the FBI statistics, then guns are still way down the list! way behind cars and even Baseball bats and screwdrivers! DR
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerranger View Post
    And if the true experts of violent death are the FBI statistics, then guns are still way down the list! way behind cars and even Baseball bats and screwdrivers! DR
    Personally, I've always wondered why the AMA hasn't devoted more energy to the implementation of a tobacco use ban in this country. Tobacco has long been the single greatest cause of preventable deaths in the US.
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    In the position paper from the ACP referenced, many highly debatable and likely inaccurate statements are made. One that jumped out at me was this:
    "Lawmakers should carefully consider the growing but limited body of evidence that suggests the concealed-carry laws may create a greater risk of firearms injuries and deaths than any protective value they may provide."

    Ok, upon what basis do they make this claim? A controversial and highly discredited paper, "Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime: A comprehensive Assessment Using Panel Data and a State-Level Synthetic Controls Analysis;John J. Donohue, Abhay Aneja, and Kyle D. Weber"
    https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content...17_stamped.pdf

    A critique is here:
    https://crimeresearch.org/2017/07/ba...a-weber-study/

    The dishonesty of the activist left is nothing short of appalling, they're not one bit ashamed to promulgate grossly erroneous fiction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CavemanBob View Post
    In the position paper from the ACP referenced, many highly debatable and likely inaccurate statements are made. One that jumped out at me was this:
    "Lawmakers should carefully consider the growing but limited body of evidence that suggests the concealed-carry laws may create a greater risk of firearms injuries and deaths than any protective value they may provide."

    Ok, upon what basis do they make this claim? A controversial and highly discredited paper, "Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime: A comprehensive Assessment Using Panel Data and a State-Level Synthetic Controls Analysis;John J. Donohue, Abhay Aneja, and Kyle D. Weber"
    https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content...17_stamped.pdf

    A critique is here:
    https://crimeresearch.org/2017/07/ba...a-weber-study/

    The dishonesty of the activist left is nothing short of appalling, they're not one bit ashamed to promulgate grossly erroneous fiction.
    Agreed on all points. Much better to rebuke and repudiate false claims with facts rather than with idiotic references to lane changes.
    CavemanBob likes this.
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