CA set to expand red flag - Page 2

CA set to expand red flag

This is a discussion on CA set to expand red flag within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by DZUS employers, co-workers and high school and college teachers and administrators. One suspects that the antis among them just might consider it ...

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Thread: CA set to expand red flag

  1. #16
    Member Array bullet183's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZUS View Post
    employers, co-workers and high school and college teachers and administrators.

    One suspects that the antis among them just might consider it their duty to flag any and all gun owners. Is there no downside if this happens? Could they be sued if they are lying, for example? Just wondering.

    .
    No consequences. As I’ve said before eventually just being a gun owner will raise the red flag, that’s the endgame comrade.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array jmf552's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DZUS View Post
    One suspects that the antis among them just might consider it their duty to flag any and all gun owners. Is there no downside if this happens? Could they be sued if they are lying, for example? Just wondering.
    CA law makes the act of intentionally creating a false accusation under red flag a misdemeanor. And yes, if you could prove someone did this maliciously, you could probably sue. But the big problem is proving that would be almost impossible. Consider that a red flag can be done without:
    • Any prior due process
    • Any involvement of clinical psychological professionals and therefore no clinical evaluation of the subject
    • The subject having made any threats or committed any threatening actions
    • The subject being accused of being a danger to anyone but himself

    In addition, "evidence" that is allowed under the law is that the subject has recently bought "a lot" of guns and/or ammunition. The atmosphere today is "see something, say something" and people being "triggered" into "feeling threatened." There are factions in CA is actually promoting the use of red flag with LE training, websites and PSAs.

    So someone doesn't really have to lie to bring a red flag charge against you. They just have to say you own guns and they feel threatened. And we know a lot of people feel threatened just because you own guns and seem like someone who stands up for himself. If no real facts have to be presented to get red flagged, how you prove they maliciously presented false facts? If you have ever had an argument with someone, no matter how justified, that just ices that cake.

    Seven years ago I worked in HR at a big company in PA. We were doing layoffs. Hundreds of people were given two weeks notice their job was ending. They had a chance to say goodbye, clean out their desks, etc. Some even had layoff parties. But I know of at least one instance where a guy who had done nothing wrong was given no notice, not allowed to clean out his desk and marched out of the building with his access card confiscated. Why? It was known he had studied martial arts and that he owned firearms. The company never said that, but I'm convinced that was the sole reason. That was not in line with HR policy at all, they just did it.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlights View Post
    - city gun violence never really drove gun control because in most cases the victim and suspect know each other
    - it's the RANDOM shootings that strike the most fear because innocents get shot versus drug dealer shooting drug dealer, which nobody cares about

    - the Aderall (amphetamine) Klonopin (cat tranqualizers) ADHD participation-throphy, 'you are special' generation from the 80s and 90's is ALL GROWN UP NOW and out there in society
    - these are the NUTJOBS doing all this mass murder

    - THESE people need to be REDFLAGGED for creepy behavior, internet threats, 4chan posting, etc etc..

    - so I'm for red-flagging. But then again I have nothing to be flagged about. I follow the golden rule, and keep my mouth SHUT unless I have something nice or constructive to say.
    Oh look, another new member trying to tell us red flag laws are a good thing.
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlights View Post
    - city gun violence

    - so I'm for red-flagging. But then again I have nothing to be flagged about. I follow the golden rule, and keep my mouth SHUT unless I have something nice or constructive to say.

    First of all there IS NO SUCH THING AS GUN VIOLENCE. Guns are inanimate objects and by themselves can do NOTHING. The violence is evil/sick people doing evil/sick acts using guns.

    Second

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out–

    Because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out–
    Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out–
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    This whole Red Flag deal is the hill on which the pro-2A-ers should be planting flag on in the refusal to budge one inch, IMO. It is ultimately the gun-grab endgame, where anyone's guns can be taken at any time without due process simply based on the say-so of whoever. Forget Walmart and pay attention to the bigger picture.
    I almost talked myself out of a voice in wasted effort trying to get people to see the “bigger picture” when the Delaware Legislature was busying themselves preparing to pass the State’s “red flag” statute. It was akin to pushing a rope up a hill or beating one’s forehead against a brick wall. The concept was whole heartedly backed by the NRA lobbyists along with the Delaware Shooting Sports Association and it passed the legislature with unanimous support. EVERY SINGLE SENATOR and REPRESENTATIVE, Democrat and Republican alike, voted for the abomination that was passed. Republican turncoats used the fact that both the NRA and DSSA supported the bill as cover to justify their actions. These “red flag” bills are the most dangerous threats to gun owner’s rights in my lifetime. It seems no one could or would stop to consider that judges are human beings. No judge is going to want to be the person that denied an order to then wakeup in the morning to see the individual that they didn’t “red flag” did in fact go on a shooting rampage. Judges will invariably err on the side of their interests and not on the side of the accused individual’s rights.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanG View Post
    I almost talked myself out of a voice in wasted effort trying to get people to see the “bigger picture” when the Delaware Legislature was busying themselves preparing to pass the State’s “red flag” statute. It was akin to pushing a rope up a hill or beating one’s forehead against a brick wall. The concept was whole heartedly backed by the NRA lobbyists along with the Delaware Shooting Sports Association and it passed the legislature with unanimous support. EVERY SINGLE SENATOR and REPRESENTATIVE, Democrat and Republican alike, voted for the abomination that was passed. Republican turncoats used the fact that both the NRA and DSSA supported the bill as cover to justify their actions. These “red flag” bills are the most dangerous threats to gun owner’s rights in my lifetime. It seems no one could or would stop to consider that judges are human beings. No judge is going to want to be the person that denied an order to then wakeup in the morning to see the individual that they didn’t “red flag” did in fact go on a shooting rampage. Judges will invariably err on the side of their interests and not on the side of the accused individual’s rights.
    They sold us cheap on this one. More will follow. NRA's endorsement of such laws reveals much, IMO.
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  8. #22
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    I really think there is going to come a point with these red flag laws where people who want to keep theirs will have to stop talking about them openly, stop posting on gun forums, and even make a show of selling off a few of their guns while proclaiming they are done with all of them, but quietly keeping a few.

    I don't know how else to protect yourself when and if this crap goes nationwide

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by m5215 View Post
    Thank God Texas is not like this. My employer is very anti gun even to the point where they told me to not openly discuss anything about firearms in the office. I would not put it by someone in our ultra liberal management to possibly consider reporting something under an expanded red flag law if it existed here. Keep in mind that I was only speaking about different firearm models and features/cost. I did not even mention anything about firing a weapon.
    You might consider updating your resume. Someone in the office staff, perhaps one with whom you are competing for a job, will remember this and bring it up to your disadvantage at a really bad time.
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  10. #24
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  11. #25
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    One very important thing to remember - the "red flag laws" era is just beginning. There's no chance that it won't expand and spread to other "feel good" laws that chip away at your gun rights. Ownership of guns need to be kept away from public knowledge, especially neighbors, and family. Kids need to be told to NEVER mention that guns are in the house. Sad and dangerous times await all of us, and trusting anybody is simply foolish.
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array DZUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    CA law makes the act of intentionally creating a false accusation under red flag a misdemeanor. And yes, if you could prove someone did this maliciously, you could probably sue. But the big problem is proving that would be almost impossible. Consider that a red flag can be done without:
    • Any prior due process
    • Any involvement of clinical psychological professionals and therefore no clinical evaluation of the subject
    • The subject having made any threats or committed any threatening actions
    • The subject being accused of being a danger to anyone but himself

    In addition, "evidence" that is allowed under the law is that the subject has recently bought "a lot" of guns and/or ammunition. The atmosphere today is "see something, say something" and people being "triggered" into "feeling threatened." There are factions in CA is actually promoting the use of red flag with LE training, websites and PSAs.

    So someone doesn't really have to lie to bring a red flag charge against you. They just have to say you own guns and they feel threatened. And we know a lot of people feel threatened just because you own guns and seem like someone who stands up for himself. If no real facts have to be presented to get red flagged, how you prove they maliciously presented false facts? If you have ever had an argument with someone, no matter how justified, that just ices that cake.

    Seven years ago I worked in HR at a big company in PA. We were doing layoffs. Hundreds of people were given two weeks notice their job was ending. They had a chance to say goodbye, clean out their desks, etc. Some even had layoff parties. But I know of at least one instance where a guy who had done nothing wrong was given no notice, not allowed to clean out his desk and marched out of the building with his access card confiscated. Why? It was known he had studied martial arts and that he owned firearms. The company never said that, but I'm convinced that was the sole reason. That was not in line with HR policy at all, they just did it.
    Thanks much for such a thoughtful and cogent reply, my DC friend.

    .
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  13. #27
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  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array CavemanBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    CA law makes the act of intentionally creating a false accusation under red flag a misdemeanor. And yes, if you could prove someone did this maliciously, you could probably sue. But the big problem is proving that would be almost impossible. Consider that a red flag can be done without:
    [
    Seven years ago I worked in HR at a big company in PA. We were doing layoffs. Hundreds of people were given two weeks notice their job was ending. They had a chance to say goodbye, clean out their desks, etc. Some even had layoff parties. But I know of at least one instance where a guy who had done nothing wrong was given no notice, not allowed to clean out his desk and marched out of the building with his access card confiscated. Why? It was known he had studied martial arts and that he owned firearms. The company never said that, but I'm convinced that was the sole reason. That was not in line with HR policy at all, they just did it.
    A little over a year ago, the company I work for outsourced IT and laid-off the entire IT staff. The IT manager was known to have guns and the general manager is a real gun phobe (CA import). The general manager had two city of Boulder police officers and two armed security guards present for the dismissal of the IT manager and continued the armed security guards for a month after the layoff which was as amicable as one can be. We all went out to lunch with the laid-off IT manager that day at noon, the GM, who bristles at the word gun, was not in attendance.
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