FL Red Flags over 100 children, as young as 8

[Novarider]

"Polk County Judge Bruce Smith attributed the number of orders against children to "the aggressive nature of our sheriff's department.""

Uhhhh...... You signed them right? Sounds like you are just as aggressive.

[retired badge 1]

I have a general question about red flag laws.

Suppose you have a teenage child in you home who has threatened someone at school or written something that falls within the parameters of the red flag seizure guidelines. And suppose you own guns, not your sons, which you keep locked up in a quality safe. Can the "authorites" seize your firearms? Two things come to my mind that says not but then, nothing surprises me anymore.

One. You are not the object of the complaint and concern. It is your child and not you. You have a clean record and are a long standing gun owner who enjoys hunting and shooting.

Two. Your firearms are stored well with no one but you having access to them. Your safe was made by a well-known safe company who's products are solid and of high quality.

So how might this come out?

How will this come out? Probably with you standing by while the cops haul your safe away, unless you are willing to open it up for them to take just the firearms. Then you will need a lawyer, both you and every member of your family will probably have to undergo extensive psychiatric examinations (maybe some treatment programs, since over half of all pshrinks are in therapy themselves and can't imagine anyone who doesn't need a mental tune-up), and in the meantime any job you hold that requires background checks or security clearance is probably at risk. Shouldn't take more than a year or two to get your "expedited" petition for redress on the court's docket and a hearing scheduled, and hopefully you won't have to file an appeal (another year or two at best). And all at your expense, of course.

Well, you asked.

[Mike1956]

How will this come out? Probably with you standing by while the cops haul your safe away, unless you are willing to open it up for them to take just the firearms. Then you will need a lawyer, both you and every member of your family will probably have to undergo extensive psychiatric examinations (maybe some treatment programs, since over half of all pshrinks are in therapy themselves and can't imagine anyone who doesn't need a mental tune-up), and in the meantime any job you hold that requires background checks or security clearance is probably at risk. Shouldn't take more than a year or two to get your "expedited" petition for redress on the court's docket and a hearing scheduled, and hopefully you won't have to file an appeal (another year or two at best). And all at your expense, of course.

Well, you asked.

Remember the NRA's Chris Cox announcing support for Red Flag confiscations, but only with mandatory mental health treatment? Take our guns, then demand we undergo treatment.

[SpringerXD]

This has been a long time coming, and sadly, it's here. Psychiatry and Psychology are "fluff" sciences at best. They always have been. I've always said that psychologists are for people who don't have intelligent friends and/or family members to help them sort things out and stay balanced.

Having said that, sure, there are cases where psychologists have helped people. But, that's entirely outside of the scope of this conversation and the current events. I've feared for a long time that "mental health" would be used to not only disarm us but to accomplish other egregious things as well.

It's a very slippery slope, folks. First they start disarming people who "have issues," based on whatever criteria they set and according to whoever claims it, and the next thing you know, there will be a whole new set of rules to define who "has issues." Don't agree with the liberals in high office? You "have issues." You supposedly made a racist remark 35 years ago? You "have issues." You showed anger at some time toward something? You "have issues."

And of course, let's not dare talk about the psychotropic drugs that are probably in the system of 90% or more of mass shooters. That might anger Big Pharma and affect the billions they rake in every year.

As a side note/anecdote, I'll never forget some years ago when I was watching a TV commercial for some prescription drug (I forget what) and one of the listed side effects was.....TADA! "Suicidal thoughts." I told my wife at the time, quite sarcastically, "Wow. I just CAN'T WAIT to get in on that action! NOT!" Well, guess what? I'm not even a big TV watcher, but practically every drug commercial I happen to catch seems to have the "suicidal thoughts" warning.

So what's the "solution" we hear suggested? Blame the guns.

[SouthernBoyVA]

They would seize them. We've already seen an uncle's guns seized when the nephew didn't live in the same house and he didn't even have access to the safe! The nephew just "knew where" he could get guns.

Now that IS criminal. It smacks of being arrested because your nephew committed a crime.

[SouthernBoyVA]

How will this come out? Probably with you standing by while the cops haul your safe away, unless you are willing to open it up for them to take just the firearms. Then you will need a lawyer, both you and every member of your family will probably have to undergo extensive psychiatric examinations (maybe some treatment programs, since over half of all pshrinks are in therapy themselves and can't imagine anyone who doesn't need a mental tune-up), and in the meantime any job you hold that requires background checks or security clearance is probably at risk. Shouldn't take more than a year or two to get your "expedited" petition for redress on the court's docket and a hearing scheduled, and hopefully you won't have to file an appeal (another year or two at best). And all at your expense, of course.

Well, you asked.

Yes I did ask.

What you have laid out gives good reason to hide/bury your guns, at least some of them, and also have some which you have purchased in private sales where there is no "official" paper trail, in states where this is legal.

Fortunately for me, I have no children living at home and even if either of them were, they are fine people. However, this rush to pass Red Flag Laws has me deeply worried. I see them as clear violations of several of our rights mentioned in the Bill of Rights, which makes any such laws illegal by definition.

But then, as I am fond of saying, nothing really surprises me anymore.

[SouthernBoyVA]

@SouthernBoyVA - Sandy Hook shooter ring a bell?

I believe I am missing something here. Please explain.

[sdprof]

I believe I am missing something here. Please explain.

He killed his mom, then got into her safe for the guns he used.

[jmf552]

@SpringerXD : I hope you are aware that Psychiatry and Psychology are generally not involved in Red Flag proceedings, at least not in the ex parte (pre due process) part of it. And they really can't be. For a psyc professional to diagnose a dangerous condition, they would need to examine the patient, generally of over multiple sessions. They are not going to testify to a person's mental health without that and of course that could not be done without that person's knowledge and cooperation. They are not going to base a diagnosis on hearsay.

Generally with Red Flag proceedings, the determination that someone is a danger is done solely by the judge, who is not a psyc professional. Also, keep in mind that only about a third of mass killers are diagnosed with a dangerous mental illness. The other two-thirds are technically "sane" so a psyc determination would make no difference. You do no have to have a dangerous mental illness to be Red Flagged. You don't have to have violated any laws, or threatened violence against anyone. It only requires that family members or LE think you might be a threat and a judge buys off on it.

[SFury]

@SouthernBoyVA - Sandy Hook shooter ring a bell?

The Sandy Hook situation has nothing to do with anything. That was a situation that occurred because the dead person, the mother, failed in every aspect. The father and the shooters brother, amongst others, tried to get him committed full time. The mother stopped that. She even taught him to shoot, and allowed him to have access to the safe. Whether or not he knew the combination, or he found it, is irrelevant.

Her failure cost many lives. She can never screw up like that again. Her son, who was born broken, can never harm anyone again.

To use the Sandy Hook case as proof anything needs to be done is ludicrous. One of two people who should have done something failed, and enabled, things to happen. NOTHING can prevent that without grossly violating the rights of everyone. Which is what red flag laws are designed to do. They are clearly violating the 4th amendment like NYCs Stop and Frisk policy did.

Freedom has a price. Just as the gift of free will does. It gives people the option to do good, bad, and everything in between choices. We just have to be prepared to handle things so the bad choices don't cause us problems.

[Mike1956]

"Polk County Judge Bruce Smith attributed the number of orders against children to "the aggressive nature of our sheriff's department.""

Uhhhh...... You signed them right? Sounds like you are just as aggressive.

Sounds more like the judge is simply the rubber stamp.

[Mike1956]

You have twenty guns locked in your safe? You're mentally ill.

Several thousand rounds of ammo? You must be planning a mass shooting.

Shoot regularly? Practicing for the real thing.

Advocate for Second Amendment rights, against gun restrictions? Right wing racist who needs to be disarmed.

Post frequently on gun forums? Fixated on firearms.

Vote Republican? Mentally ill.


It shouldn't be too tough for anyone to convince a sympathetic judge that you are dangerous, and have no business possessing guns.

[SouthernBoyVA]

He killed his mom, then got into her safe for the guns he used.

Yes I knew he killed his mother but somehow missed the part about him getting into her safe. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[SouthernBoyVA]

@SpringerXD : I hope you are aware that Psychiatry and Psychology are generally not involved in Red Flag proceedings, at least not in the ex parte (pre due process) part of it. And they really can't be. For a psyc professional to diagnose a dangerous condition, they would need to examine the patient, generally of over multiple sessions. They are not going to testify to a person's mental health without that and of course that could not be done without that person's knowledge and cooperation. They are not going to base a diagnosis on hearsay.

Generally with Red Flag proceedings, the determination that someone is a danger is done solely by the judge, who is not a psyc professional. Also, keep in mind that only about a third of mass killers are diagnosed with a dangerous mental illness. The other two-thirds are technically "sane" so a psyc determination would make no difference. You do no have to have a dangerous mental illness to be Red Flagged. You don't have to have violated any laws, or threatened violence against anyone. It only requires that family members or LE think you might be a threat and a judge buys off on it.

Excellent description of a star chamber if there ever was one. Welcome to the Middle Ages.

[SouthernBoyVA]

You have twenty guns locked in your safe? You're mentally ill.

Several thousand rounds of ammo? You must be planning a mass shooting.

Shoot regularly? Practicing for the real thing.

Advocate for Second Amendment rights, against gun restrictions? Right wing racist who needs to be disarmed.

Post frequently on gun forums? Fixated on firearms.

Vote Republican? Mentally ill.


It shouldn't be too tough for anyone to convince a sympathetic judge that you are dangerous, and have no business possessing guns.

Gee, sounds like the cries of many of the demo candidates when ranting on about firearms control and what to do about the "epidemic of gun violence".

Remember, we are all in that "basket of deplorables" to those people. They disdain us and only tolerate us to get votes. Were they to have the power and opportunity, we would lose a lot more than just our 2A rights.