Civil War Begins When...

Civil War Begins When...

This is a discussion on Civil War Begins When... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; ...the constitutional order breaks down: https://www.theamericanconservative....r-breaks-down/ “... Today, two irreconcilable visions of American life believe that they can continue only if they own the whole ...

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  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array MJK's Avatar
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    Civil War Begins When...

    ...the constitutional order breaks down:

    https://www.theamericanconservative....r-breaks-down/

    “... Today, two irreconcilable visions of American life believe that they can continue only if they own the whole order. Yet ours has been a shared constitutional order. As we witnessed from 1860-1876, it must proceed as a consensual and joint party system: It cannot exist through single party ownership. The single-minded drive toward this goal—especially now by Blue state Democrats—has embrittled our constitutional order, and is creating the basis for a full-scale legitimacy crackup...”

    What say ye?
    “I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [mess] with me, I’ll kill you all."
    — James “Mad Dog” Mattis

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    Distinguished Member Array MJK's Avatar
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    Note especially the discussion of state nullification of federal laws, particularly those which infringe on the 2A.
    “I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you [mess] with me, I’ll kill you all."
    — James “Mad Dog” Mattis

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    Senior Member Array KILTED COWBOY's Avatar
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    It was about 80 years between the end of the War of Independence and the Civil War.
    All this shows is that we a well past due for another "adjustment"
    Usually things just seem to moderate themselves.
    But with the advent of the 24 hour news cycle and the social media outlets this is no longer the case.
    There is no longer any moderation, just more fuel thrown on the fire
    G26Raven, ETXhiker, OD* and 10 others like this.

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    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    As political commentator Mark Levin has said, we are already in a civil war, the shooting just has not started yet. I believe we are in a low intensity conflict in certain locations in this country. All it will take is a catalyst event to push us over the edge. Trump's re-election, or non-re-election, or some other unforeseen event is all I think it may take.
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    VIP Member Array scottync's Avatar
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    It takes a real lack of imagination for 637 elected officials to push a nation of 325 million into a civil war.
    airslot, Risasi, M1911A1 and 5 others like this.

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    Distinguished Member Array ETXhiker's Avatar
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    When I look back on my younger years, there were spirited debates, and even animosity between the two major parties. But both parties saluted the flag, both parties rejected socialism/communism, both parties believed in a strong military and control of our borders. The new breed of far left politicians is so antagonistic to the values most of us grew up with, I don't see how a reconciliation between the left and right can ever happen in this political climate. Will our "cold" civil war go hot? I don't know, but there is an authoritarian mindset on the left that goes against the DNA of America. Somethings got to give.
    "There are some ideas that are so wrong, only a very intelligent person could believe them." - George Orwell

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    Our Constitution is the contract that seals the social construct of our nation. What some folks seem unwilling to accept that in the event of significant changes in the Constitution one of the effects is to release some or all dissenting states from the contract (effectively allowing immediate secession). A basic principle of law is that a contract may only be changed or modified when all parties agree to the proposed changes or modifications. We are a nation of self-government by consent, not a nation ruled by a government.

    Over the past 30 years there has been a general abrogation by Congress of its fundamental responsibilities (legislation and budgeting). We have gone as long as 7 years at a time without a budget being passed, only "continuing resolutions" permitting everything to continue without any act of Congress. Congress has passed hundreds of laws relegating to non-elected bureaucrats the authority to pass regulations by decree, enforce bureaucratic orders with the force of law, administer fines and other penalties within each agency's own regulatory process, and generally act as plenipotentiary dictators.

    The political process has become adversarial to the point of open warfare, each party acting primarily to prevent the opposing party to act in any way whatsoever. The focus of our representatives is always on re-election and permanent political power, rather than on the welfare of the nation.

    Our courts, including the Supreme Court, have become political enforcement agencies of the respective parties. The clear language of the Constitution is given far less standing in judicial proceedings than the political goals of the judges (and their political parties).

    We have allowed our public education system, from pre-school through university levels, to be co-opted by one far end of the spectrum of political thought, thus serving primarily as a means of social and political indoctrination rather than the intended purpose of educating our young and preparing them for responsible lives and citizenship.

    Revolution begins with the soap box (oratory, speaking out publicly), then proceeds to the ballot box (democratic process), and ends with the bullet box (open resistance or warfare). For the time being we still actively engaged at the soap box level, with the ballot box heavily contested, and a lot of people stocking up on bullet boxes.

    Solutions? I wish I had some to offer.

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    To me it is just gobbeldygoook packaged as intellectual theory. I have studied a great deal of US History. From the before the Constitution was enacted we have had an adversarial system of governing. It reached a peak during the time before the Civil War. But that war was about one thing: slavery. For the slave states is was about economics for the abollishionist its ir was about morality. For the Confederacy it was about splitting the nation in two. For the Union is was about keeping the Nation as one. Once resolved ww were one nation, but divisions have always been part of the national fabric. Civil rights, abortion, states rights, federalism, imigration, welfare, etc are not Constitutional issues. They are legislative and judicial issues. Legislation making is a contest. Judicial precesses are also a contest. The adversarial nature of our system is evident today more than ever. That is because many whom we elect are turning adversarial into an demonization. It is not the contest. that will harm the US. It is the people who cannot compromise. The Constitution was drafted with compromises to bring it into law. We do not. have Constutional crisis. We have a crisis of opposing ideologies with the subscribers on each side unwilling to compromise.Allof that while over 60% of the People are unsubscribed to a specific ideology.
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    Senior Member Array pskys2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJK View Post
    ...the constitutional order breaks down:

    https://www.theamericanconservative....r-breaks-down/

    “... Today, two irreconcilable visions of American life believe that they can continue only if they own the whole order. Yet ours has been a shared constitutional order. As we witnessed from 1860-1876, it must proceed as a consensual and joint party system: It cannot exist through single party ownership. The single-minded drive toward this goal–especially now by Blue state Democrats–has embrittled our constitutional order, and is creating the basis for a full-scale legitimacy crackup...”

    What say ye?
    The conservative side have only reacted to the actions of the progressive side, and weakly at that, until Trump. He came in and like he had promised he was the bull in the china shop.

    BUT the Dems/Left/Progressives have pushed so far and are pushing so hard that if the Republicans/Conservatives don't draw a line in the sand now it will be too late.

    I can't see how anyone can expect to negotiate, or act in a bi-partisan way, with a side that claims you are evil and must be destroyed. Conservatives have been pushed into the corner and there just is no more room to give.

    Except for the radical fringe I've rarely seen the conservative side tell others how to live. They do expect you to have consequences for your actions/behaviors/choices but again that's reactive not proactive.

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    I say both sides have a right to their opinions, yet neither side has the right to force those opinions onto the other. I have the right to keep and bear arms; they have the right not to. I cannot/will not force my right into them. They should agree likewise.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
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    Senior Member Array pskys2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I say both sides have a right to their opinions, yet neither side has the right to force those opinions onto the other. I have the right to keep and bear arms; they have the right not to. I cannot/will not force my right into them. They should agree likewise.
    But there's the rub. The left/progressive/dems won't accept that you have rights they don't agree with. And they are well down that path and I don't believe, as a party/ideology, they can ever return to a place that can be trusted. It may very well be the only chance is for the Democratic Party to be replaced as the major 2nd party with something else.

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    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskys2 View Post
    But there's the rub. The left/progressive/dems won't accept that you have rights they don't agree with. And they are well down that path and I don't believe, as a party/ideology, they can ever return to a place that can be trusted. It may very well be the only chance is for the Democratic Party to be replaced as the major 2nd party with something else.
    They can have their opinion forever, I don't really care about changing it, but if they persist in forcing it upon me, my reply will be:

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    G26Raven, OldChap, OD* and 8 others like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon on the loose.
    Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array GpTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retired badge 1 View Post
    Our Constitution is the contract that seals the social construct of our nation. What some folks seem unwilling to accept that in the event of significant changes in the Constitution one of the effects is to release some or all dissenting states from the contract (effectively allowing immediate secession). A basic principle of law is that a contract may only be changed or modified when all parties agree to the proposed changes or modifications. We are a nation of self-government by consent, not a nation ruled by a government.

    Over the past 30 years there has been a general abrogation by Congress of its fundamental responsibilities (legislation and budgeting). We have gone as long as 7 years at a time without a budget being passed, only "continuing resolutions" permitting everything to continue without any act of Congress. Congress has passed hundreds of laws relegating to non-elected bureaucrats the authority to pass regulations by decree, enforce bureaucratic orders with the force of law, administer fines and other penalties within each agency's own regulatory process, and generally act as plenipotentiary dictators.

    The political process has become adversarial to the point of open warfare, each party acting primarily to prevent the opposing party to act in any way whatsoever. The focus of our representatives is always on re-election and permanent political power, rather than on the welfare of the nation.

    Our courts, including the Supreme Court, have become political enforcement agencies of the respective parties. The clear language of the Constitution is given far less standing in judicial proceedings than the political goals of the judges (and their political parties).

    We have allowed our public education system, from pre-school through university levels, to be co-opted by one far end of the spectrum of political thought, thus serving primarily as a means of social and political indoctrination rather than the intended purpose of educating our young and preparing them for responsible lives and citizenship.

    Revolution begins with the soap box (oratory, speaking out publicly), then proceeds to the ballot box (democratic process), and ends with the bullet box (open resistance or warfare). For the time being we still actively engaged at the soap box level, with the ballot box heavily contested, and a lot of people stocking up on bullet boxes.

    Solutions? I wish I had some to offer.
    We must show the Democrats that we won't stand for the kind of conduct that we disagree with by voting them out of office at election time. That is the only peaceful way to resolve the issue. When people in our area start complaining because the Democrats are going against the wishes of the people I get on social media and tell them that it is because we keep voting for a name instead of looking at the candidates voting record. Around here we have been guilty of apathy for way too long and so we stew in our troubles but I intend to get the word out. I have learned that it takes years to provide a feasible candidate and to get the kind of support for them that will win an election.

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array G26Raven's Avatar
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    I think we have a very clear situation that is easy to understand. On the one hand, we have progressives who want to change the fabric of our country by adopting socialism/communism, throwing out our constitution, and dictating social morays. On the other hand, we have conservatives who want to keep this country according to the principles it was founded on. You have a federal government populated with people who want to eliminate a duly elected president. This is a clash that will not end well.
    "If you look like food, you will be eaten." Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

    Learning occurs only after repetitive, demoralizing failures.

    "Who needs your truth if it stands in our way?"
    General Alexei Yepishev, political commissar of the Soviet Armed Forces

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    An interesting read but saying sanctuary states/cities are "nullifying federal law" is ridiculous. They are not nullifying anything. They are simply not allowing their own resources to be used by the federal government to perform a mission that has time and again been held to be exclusively federal.
    jmf552 likes this.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

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