National Guard Reaction? - Page 6

National Guard Reaction?

This is a discussion on National Guard Reaction? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by OldChap A couple of points. First, this is exactly my point. How can anyone actually believe this will/does happen to their precious ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldChap View Post
    A couple of points. First, this is exactly my point. How can anyone actually believe this will/does happen to their precious families and still live in that country? My answer? They should move away - immediately. OR my second point would violate forum rules, but most of us know how to stop such atrocities. There are a great many folks who have the knowledge, skills, training, and access to things that would make fighting the Taliban look like a picnic.

    And all this talk, but no one has explained the extraordinary things taking place in VA at the COUNTY LEVEL. Declaring 2nd Amendment sanctuary status, deputizing citizens, organizing militias. If everyone believes any response will be immediately overwhelmed by force of arms (as many here seem to claim), why all this? You'll have to explain it as something other than armed resistance on a state-wide scale.

    Most of you know that the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in a county (in almost all states) is not a police chief, but an elected County Sheriff. Are we not seeing a response by Chief LEO's in what now seems to be a huge majority of counties in VA? If the conclusion is so foregone, how do you explain it?

    I need to make one other slightly pertinent point. Those of you who say the only role of police and military is to obey orders ala robots, have missed something in your education. The UCMJ and law enforcement handbooks, not to mention state and federal law, do not state that every order must be obeyed regardless, it states that every LAWFUL (not Constitutional) order must be obeyed.

    The plan was to have flag officers who were moral (lawful) people issue moral (lawful) orders to those subordinate to them. It was assumed that moral leaders would not issue immoral, unlawful orders and thus violate the supreme law of the land, the Constitution. History has shown us what happens when unlawful orders are followed (or lawful orders are misconstrued or misunderstood in execution resulting in unlawful conduct). People are charged, tried, and go to prison. Some of you maybe missed my comment about such things, so I will state it again:

    If you are a soldier or LEO, you are held responsible for every order you must obey and held equally responsible for every order you are duty-bound not to obey. YOU are expected to understand what orders are lawful and what orders are unlawful - you...and no one will take the fall in your place. Fail at either point and you can land in prison - or at least you should. If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself.
    On the subject of lawful orders, how many people followed unlawful orders at Abu Ghraib? More recently, we had a captain and a 2 star admiral, and the SECNAV blow off the POTUS in the Eddie Gallagher case. Flag officer promotions are also 100% political.
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  2. #77
    VIP Member Array graydude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    The people of VA wanted free stuff and socialism . It was there choice . Now they must live with it. Unlikely the few that see it different will do much of anything.
    As much as this statement makes me cringe, there is an element of truth to it, and facing reality is prudent.

    Those who are showing up at the pro 2A rallies and encouraging sanctuary status across the state probably didn't vote leftist. However, an increasing number of their neighbors might be. Here's a cartogram showing net change in voting percentages, area equalized by population, from 2013-2017. It appears most of the state voting patterns shifted left over that time, even in what are typically considered conservative areas.
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  3. #78
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    Before the New Orleans Police pulled their Gestapo action, I'd have bet good money that it wouldn't ever happen in the USA. I'd have lost a bundle. Those "officers" of the NO PD deserved to be shot down on the spot - too bad it didn't happen. Now, if it happens again, it will be accepted by a lot of people. Our freedoms are in dire straits.
    Actually I think it won't be accepted again - in response to that occurrence, the Federal and most state governments passed laws specifically forbidding such confiscations. Any officers or military personnel who do it now are clearly violating the law.
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  5. #79
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graydude View Post
    As much as this statement makes me cringe, there is an element of truth to it, and facing reality is prudent.

    Those who are showing up at the pro 2A rallies and encouraging sanctuary status across the state probably didn't vote leftist. However, an increasing number of their neighbors might be. Here's a cartogram showing net change in voting percentages, area equalized by population, from 2013-2017. It appears most of the state voting patterns shifted left over that time, even in what are typically considered conservative areas.
    Same stuff coming to Wisconsin. Teachers Union, State workers along with all out socialist out a new Governor in. raise tax right out of the box looking to bury us in debt and go after firearms. Already state elections board is refusing to enforce state laws on voter reg.
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    This is thin ice for anyone who knows about Kent State, the Whiskey Rebellion, the WW1 veterans March, just to name a few.

    Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.
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  7. #81
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    Just spent nearly an hour reading this entire thread. Difficult to add anything to what has been said.

    11th generation American, honorably discharged Vietnam combat veteran, retired police chief. My congressman and both senators have been advised that anytime they want to pick up all the guns and ammunition all they have to do is come to the house and I will give them the ammunition first. No threat there, just a solemn promise.

  8. #82
    Member Array Mjolnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    "The mass of men serve the State thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, &c. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well... Others, as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers, and office-holders, serve the State chiefly with their heads; and, as they rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God. A very few, as heroes, patriots, martyrs, reformers in the great sense, and men, serve the State with their consciences also, and so necessarily resist it for the most part; and they are commonly treated by it as enemies." - Henry David Thoreau

    Now, I don't share this dim view of law enforcement, but there's a true principle expressed here - people who serve the state serve the state. They don't make policies or laws, they don't interpret them, they enforce them. And necessarily every LEO will enforce laws that somebody thinks are wrong, and likely some that he thinks are wrong, but he doesn't have authority to make that decision.

    So it doesn't mean much to point out that law enforcement enforces current gun laws - of course they do, like they enforce all bad laws. Anyone who can't put aside his personal opinions to some degree is not fit for that job. The important question is, at what point will it become too much for them? There are certainly some who would do whatever they're told, but I believe the majority would refuse to do substantial harm to their fellow citizens, including gun confiscation beyond individual court orders.

    I'll also point out that taking guns away from people is a routine part of police work. There's no explicit exception in the 2A for, say, disarming a robber at gunpoint, but it's something they do, isn't it? (My point being that the meaning of "shall not be infringed" is not nearly as clear as some seem to think.)
    Anyone who cannot correctly ascertain, decide and act with his own conscience [that a law is unjust] is unfit for any government job.

    I would also add that they are unfit to be considered my countrymen.


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  9. #83
    Member Array Mjolnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    But who is going to hold them accountable for it?
    That is true throughout the land: so many apologists, so many infected with Ignorance, Arrogance and Apathy...


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  10. #84
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
    That is true throughout the land: so many apologists, so many infected with Ignorance, Arrogance and Apathy...


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    Agreed!
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  11. #85
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
    Anyone who cannot correctly ascertain, decide and act with his own conscience [that a law is unjust] is unfit for any government job.

    I would also add that they are unfit to be considered my countrymen.
    Police are authorized to enforce the law, not write it. Some unjust laws will always be enforced along with the just. The alternative to that is for officers to choose which laws they enforce according to their own beliefs, which means no law has meaning.

    Nothing human is perfect.
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  12. #86
    Member Array Mjolnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    Police are authorized to enforce the law, not write it. Some unjust laws will always be enforced along with the just. The alternative to that is for officers to choose which laws they enforce according to their own beliefs, which means no law has meaning.

    Nothing human is perfect.
    Still better than violating the Constitution (Fed and State) and Bill of Rights of all.


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    VIP Member Array SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    But what are those people actually going to do? Stand there and take pictures for facebook while everyone else says "meh" and shrugs it of?
    Keep the "authorities" from breaking the law. I would imagine that if thousands of well armed citizens showed up to stop the so-called authorities from stealing their property, those so-called authorities might have a few second thoughts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Havok View Post
    So being OCONUS vs CONUS is where we determine whether a US citizen should have a trial, and be convicted of a Jury of his peers, vs dropping a bomb from a remote control plane and saying "tell the news to report that it was ok because hes a terrorist". As far as capturing and trying enemy combatants, thats somewhat, but not entirely true, but I see your point. Regardless, I am talking about US citizens here. While we are arguing over whether police or the guard will kill US citizens over guns and red flag laws, people here are showing support for dropping bombs on them. So should we really be surprised when police or military follow orders to do such things? You call it a stretch. Think back just a few years, lets say 10 years, and see if you would have believed that the word "terrorist" would someday be applied to someone just because they are an NRA member, or that a teacher could file a risk protection order and have guns confiscated from a students parent they have never met. What about if someone would have told you that the FBI, FISC, CIA, all the way up to the POTUS would all work together to try to overthrow a future POTUS? All of that was a "stretch" at one point, and when the waters are tested, and buzzwords like "terrorism" are seen as what gains approval, then it will be latched on to. Its how people became ok with drone striking a US citizen, how people became ok with being spied on, etc. The idea that a bill would be introduced in the Virginia legislature to fire LEO's who wont confiscate guns would have been seen as a stretch a week or two ago.
    Look, it doesn't appear that we are getting very far with this. I know how I feel about it and what I believe to be proper action in certain cases. FWIW I am a firm believer in our founding documents and an originalist. The rule of law should always apply where it is appropriate. How we should treat enemy combatants is another thing entirely. I would bet most on this thread know what I am talking about with this.
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  14. #88
    Nix
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    I've never been briefed that when an order is issued I should sit down and try to determine whether or not it is constitutionally sound before following it. Right now there are dozens of young officers sitting in missile silos across the nation and deep under the sea with "their fingers on the button" of nuclear missiles. If the POTUS gives the launch order, they are not expected to crack open the founding documents, a few nice reference books, and some case law to determine whether or not they should launch. They will not hold a debate. They will not light up a nuclear warfare forum with subtle points gleaned from the Federalist papers. They'll just launch. History will judge the rest, if there is a history at that point.
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  15. #89
    VIP Member Array Havok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    Police are authorized to enforce the law, not write it. Some unjust laws will always be enforced along with the just. The alternative to that is for officers to choose which laws they enforce according to their own beliefs, which means no law has meaning.

    Nothing human is perfect.
    What if we just don’t pass unjust laws?
    We get the government we deserve.

  16. #90
    VIP Member Array OldChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nix View Post
    I've never been briefed that when an order is issued I should sit down and try to determine whether or not it is constitutionally sound before following it. Right now there are dozens of young officers sitting in missile silos across the nation and deep under the sea with "their fingers on the button" of nuclear missiles. If the POTUS gives the launch order, they are not expected to crack open the founding documents, a few nice reference books, and some case law to determine whether or not they should launch. They will not hold a debate. They will not light up a nuclear warfare forum with subtle points gleaned from the Federalist papers. They'll just launch. History will judge the rest, if there is a history at that point.
    Three things you should consider. First, there is a subtle difference between launching 240 Mk V MIRVS at an enemy, and launching them against American cities. You should ponder that reality.

    Second...You must be unaware of all the continual psychological testing, monitoring, and profiling necessary to insure any nuclear weapons actually get launched when the order is given to the launch crews. Why do you think they do that? Then again, being in Montana, maybe you do know.

    Last, when you get an order to go house to house in your hometown and kill men, women, and children, you may understand more clearly what the discussion is about. I pray you never face that.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

    "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." - Thomas Jefferson

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